MEGVREKISI, Georgia (Reuters) - Russian armored vehicles have entered the northern edges of the capital of the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia, the separatists' press service reported on its website on Friday.
"Russian armored vehicles have entered the northern suburbs of Tskhinvali," the website cominf.org reported, adding that Georgian troops had started to retreat.
Moscow said its troops were responding to a Georgian assault to re-take the breakaway region, and Georgia's pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili said the two countries were at war.
Russia would cut air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday, the Russian Transport Ministry said.
Saakashvili told BBC World television Russia had been massing troops on the northern border of Georgia for months.
" They have been calling it training exercises, but they have not been concealing the fact that they are training these troops for use inside Georgia," he said.
"The way the escalation went was we came first under extensive artillery barrage from the separatists ... but in the end I was told that Russian armored vehicles started to cross the Georgian border. And that was exactly the moment when I had to take this decision to fire back."
The United States on Friday asserted its support for Georgia's territorial integrity and urged an immediate ceasefire. NASTO and the European Union have joined calls for a halt to fighting. State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos also said the United States was sending an envoy to the region "to engage with the parties in the conflict."
U.S. President George W. Bush discussed the situation with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin in Beijing, where world leaders were attending the opening of the Olympic Games, the White House said, giving no further information.
MORE THAN 1,000 DEAD
A South Ossetia minister said more than a thousand people had died in overnight shelling by Georgian forces of their capital Tskhinvali, Russia's RIA news agency reported.
"According to our information, as a result of the night-time shelling of Tskhinvali ... the number of fatalities is more than a thousand," Nationalities Minister Teimuraz Kasaev told the news agency by telephone.
A senior Georgian security official said Russian planes had bombed the Vaziani military outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi. The Interior Ministry said later three Georgian soldiers were killed.
Political analysts saw Georgia's bid to re-take its rebel region of South Ossetia by force as a gamble by its leader that he could still count on Western support in a clash with Russia.
"He is in big danger of losing the cachet he built up for himself in being pro-Western and the restraint he has often shown in the face of provocation by Russia," said James Nixey, analyst at the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London,.
"If he is going to start a war, he is going to lose the support of a lot of friends in the West."
Shell holes pierced the grey concrete apartment bocks and plumes of smoke hung over the South Ossetian capital.
In other footage, Georgian soldiers sprinted through undergrowth and dived for cover as a Russian plane dropped bombs.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused the Georgians of driving people from their homes. "We are receiving reports that a policy of ethnic cleansing was being conducted in villages in South Ossetia, the number of refugees is climbing, the panic is growing, people are trying to save their lives," he said in televised remarks from the ministry.
The crisis, the first to confront Russian President Dmitry Medvedev since he took office in May, has flared in a region emerging as a key energy transit route, and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.
It dented sentiment on Russia's benchmark equity index, which fell more than 4 percent to a 14-month low while the rouble lost more than 1 percent against a basket of currencies.
Fitch Ratings cut its foreign-currency sovereign credit rating for Georgia by one notch to "B+" from "BB-" on Friday.
Medvedev vowed to defend Russian "compatriots" in South Ossetia, where most people have been given Russian passports.
"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished," Interfax quoted him as saying.
The majority of the roughly 70,000 people living in South Ossetia are ethnically distinct from Georgians. They say they were forcibly absorbed into Georgia under Soviet rule and now want to exercise their right to self-determination.
Full Version: Russians vs Georgians
I feel better now. The world seems to make so much more sense when Russia is bullying it's neighbours 
What does Russia have against Ted Turner?
This has been going on for a while now, actually
This has been going on for a while now, actually
Eek, what a shirtstorm that turned into... *shakes head* Like Russia needed another reason to dislike the US these days.
I wonder if the Duke boys will get drafted? The South shall rise again'd! *eagerly awaits more bad Southern jokes*
I wonder if the Duke boys will get drafted? The South shall rise again'd! *eagerly awaits more bad Southern jokes*
I laughed at Bush's statement.. "Georgia is a sovereign nation and its territorial integrity must be respected." 
And..
Oh well, it's the 10th day, Georgia's about to withdraw all their forces from South Ossetia, and start a ceasefire.
And..
QUOTE
Russian soldiers captured group of American mercenaries on territory of South Ossetia. Group was captured near of Zare village. Beside this, Dmitry Medoyev has already reported that among the corpses in Tskhinvali several bodies of black people who fought on the side of Georgia were found.
Oh well, it's the 10th day, Georgia's about to withdraw all their forces from South Ossetia, and start a ceasefire.
It's stuff like this that really shows that the Olympics are a facade.
QUOTE (Datastream @ Aug 10 2008, 09:44 AM) 
It's stuff like this that really shows that the Olympics are a facade.
Have you know world politics take a back seat to the world games. What are little things like war and human rights to the games, especially when the games take place in a country that has bugged 70,000 taxis just for the Olympics?
@ Caine, where did you get that quote?
That took me to the The Presidents statement but I was looking for the link to the American Mercenaries, right now I'm coming up with Wikipedia.
Oops, wrong quote. Yeah, the other one is Wikipedia, although the page doesn't seem to actually contain that quote, even though googling the quote links to that page...weird.
I was wrong. Google sucks.
I was wrong. Google sucks.
From here.
QUOTE (( . Y . ) @ Aug 8 2008, 05:23 PM)
What does Russia have against Ted Turner?
I think they're upset that Sports Illustrated has Georgia as its pre-season #1.
Putin is a big Gators fan.
I do wonder if the Georgia-state citizens on the US got freaked out every time the news regarding Georgia-Russia conflict rose on the headlines? 
Having your largest city burned to the ground by an invading army in the past has to make you a little skittish...
Kosovo must have the right of self determination!
Georgia must have the right to protect it's territorial integrity!
Georgia must have the right to protect it's territorial integrity!
During the clash, Abkhazian provincial government have sent 1000 troops in aid of the Russian & South Ossetian comrades. They just want sovereignty & independence from Georgia's annexation, and Russia's there to help them. And I thought that's the true meaning of democracy, people's choice? And their people decided to breakaway from Georgia since 90s.
QUOTE (Caine @ Aug 11 2008, 09:52 AM)
During the clash, Abkhazian provincial government have sent 1000 troops in aid of the Russian & South Ossetian comrades. They just want sovereignty & independence from Georgia's annexation, and Russia's there to help them. And I thought that's the true meaning of democracy, people's choice? And their people decided to breakaway from Georgia since 90s.
The Confederate States of America would like a word wif' you.
QUOTE (Caine @ Aug 11 2008, 07:52 AM)
During the clash, Abkhazian provincial government have sent 1000 troops in aid of the Russian & South Ossetian comrades. They just want sovereignty & independence from Georgia's annexation, and Russia's there to help them. And I thought that's the true meaning of democracy, people's choice? And their people decided to breakaway from Georgia since 90s.
Memories of the Tibet thread make me laugh at this.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080811/...A7TfstU4Zdh24cA
I dunno about you guys, but I know I'm not at all excited by what McCain said here, moreso worried, and what's more, it gives me chills to think what he means by every country outwardly condemning Russia's actions here. If that expression of condemnation happens to involve military power...holy cow I don't even want to think about it...
QUOTE
McCain warns Russians of "severe, long-term negative consequences"
Jonathan MartinMon Aug 11, 10:22 AM ET
Hoping to further burnish his commander-in-chief credentials while his rival is on vacation and the president is abroad, John McCain appeared before cameras this morning to offer a lengthy primer on the crisis in the Caucasus, explain why it matters to America and outline steps that he thinks the U.S. and West should take to halt the violence.
McCain, speaking in Erie, Pennsylvania, before a bus trip of the state, also used the opportunity to send a warning shot to the Russians.
"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government’s actions will have for Russia’s relationship with the U.S. and Europe," McCain said.
And, describing the Russian assaults that have gone beyond the disputed territory and into sovereign Georgia as "Moscow's path of violent aggression," the GOP nominee suggested that Putin's aim may be to overthrow the pro-U.S. government in Georgia.
"This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression," McCain said.
The harder line toward the Kremlin comes as President Bush and, even more, Vice-President Cheney similarly ratchet up their criticism and as key neoconservative thinkers and McCain allies Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol take to the op-ed pages to urge action.
Full McCain statement, including his suggested responses, after the jump.
"Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests America has around the world. And yet Russian aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States of America.
"Georgia is an ancient country, at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and one of the world’s first nations to adopt Christianity as an official religion. After a brief period of independence following the Russian revolution, the Red Army forced Georgia to join the Soviet Union in 1922. As the Soviet Union crumbled at the end of the Cold War, Georgia regained its independence in 1991, but its early years were marked by instability, corruption, and economic crises.
"Following fraudulent parliamentary elections in 2003, a peaceful, democratic revolution took place, led by the U.S.-educated lawyer Mikheil Saakashvili. The Rose Revolution changed things dramatically and, following his election, President Saakashvili embarked on a series of wide-ranging and successful reforms. I’ve met with President Saakashvili many times, including during several trips to Georgia.
"What the people of Georgia have accomplished – in terms of democratic governance, a Western orientation, and domestic reform – is nothing short of remarkable. That makes Russia’s recent actions against the Georgians all the more alarming. In the face of Russian aggression, the very existence of independent Georgia – and the survival of its democratically-elected government – are at stake.
"In recent days Moscow has sent its tanks and troops across the internationally recognized border into the Georgian region of South Ossetia. Statements by Moscow that it was merely aiding the Ossetians are belied by reports of Russian troops in the region of Abkhazia, repeated Russian bombing raids across Georgia, and reports of a de facto Russian naval blockade of the Georgian coast. Whatever tensions and hostilities might have existed between Georgians and Ossetians, they in no way justify Moscow’s path of violent aggression. Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.
"The implications of Russian actions go beyond their threat to the territorial integrity and independence of a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors – such as Ukraine – for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided of Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics. The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors. We have other important strategic interests at stake in Georgia, especially the continued flow of oil through the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which Russia attempted to bomb in recent days; the operation of a critical communication and trade route from Georgia through Azerbaijan and Central Asia; and the integrity and influence of NATO, whose members reaffirmed last April the territorial integrity, independence, and sovereignty of Georgia.
"Yesterday Georgia withdrew its troops from South Ossetia and offered a ceasefire. The Russians responded by bombing the civilian airport in Georgia’s capital, Tblisi, and by stepping up its offensive in Abkhazia. This pattern of attack appears aimed not at restoring any status quo ante in South Ossetia, but rather at toppling the democratically elected government of Georgia. This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression.
"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government’s actions will have for Russia’s relationship with the U.S. and Europe. It is time we moved forward with a number of steps.
"The United States and our allies should continue efforts to bring a resolution before the UN Security Council condemning Russian aggression, noting the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and calling for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory. We should move ahead with the resolution despite Russian veto threats, and submit Russia to the court of world public opinion.
"NATO’s North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO’s future relationship with Russia, a Partnership for Peace nation. NATO’s decision to withhold a Membership Action Plan for Georgia might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia, and I urge the NATO allies to revisit the decision.
"The Secretary of State should begin high-level diplomacy, including visiting Europe, to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia. With the same aim, the U.S. should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France, and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis. The visit of French President Sarkozy to Moscow this week is a welcome expression of transatlantic activism.
"Working with allied partners, the U.S. should immediately consult with the Ukrainian government and other concerned countries on steps to secure their continued independence. This is particularly important as a number of Russian Black Sea fleet vessels currently in Georgian territorial waters are stationed at Russia’s base in the Ukrainian Crimea.
"The U.S. should work with Azerbaijan and Turkey, and other interested friends, to develop plans to strengthen the security of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.
"The U.S. should send immediate economic and humanitarian assistance to help mitigate the impact the invasion has had on the people of Georgia.
Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops, and enter into negotiations with Georgia. We must remind Russia’s leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world. World history is often made in remote, obscure countries. It is being made in Georgia today. It is the responsibility of the leading nations of the world to ensure that history continues to be a record of humanity’s progress toward respecting the values and security of free people.
"Thank you."
Jonathan MartinMon Aug 11, 10:22 AM ET
Hoping to further burnish his commander-in-chief credentials while his rival is on vacation and the president is abroad, John McCain appeared before cameras this morning to offer a lengthy primer on the crisis in the Caucasus, explain why it matters to America and outline steps that he thinks the U.S. and West should take to halt the violence.
McCain, speaking in Erie, Pennsylvania, before a bus trip of the state, also used the opportunity to send a warning shot to the Russians.
"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government’s actions will have for Russia’s relationship with the U.S. and Europe," McCain said.
And, describing the Russian assaults that have gone beyond the disputed territory and into sovereign Georgia as "Moscow's path of violent aggression," the GOP nominee suggested that Putin's aim may be to overthrow the pro-U.S. government in Georgia.
"This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression," McCain said.
The harder line toward the Kremlin comes as President Bush and, even more, Vice-President Cheney similarly ratchet up their criticism and as key neoconservative thinkers and McCain allies Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol take to the op-ed pages to urge action.
Full McCain statement, including his suggested responses, after the jump.
"Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests America has around the world. And yet Russian aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States of America.
"Georgia is an ancient country, at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and one of the world’s first nations to adopt Christianity as an official religion. After a brief period of independence following the Russian revolution, the Red Army forced Georgia to join the Soviet Union in 1922. As the Soviet Union crumbled at the end of the Cold War, Georgia regained its independence in 1991, but its early years were marked by instability, corruption, and economic crises.
"Following fraudulent parliamentary elections in 2003, a peaceful, democratic revolution took place, led by the U.S.-educated lawyer Mikheil Saakashvili. The Rose Revolution changed things dramatically and, following his election, President Saakashvili embarked on a series of wide-ranging and successful reforms. I’ve met with President Saakashvili many times, including during several trips to Georgia.
"What the people of Georgia have accomplished – in terms of democratic governance, a Western orientation, and domestic reform – is nothing short of remarkable. That makes Russia’s recent actions against the Georgians all the more alarming. In the face of Russian aggression, the very existence of independent Georgia – and the survival of its democratically-elected government – are at stake.
"In recent days Moscow has sent its tanks and troops across the internationally recognized border into the Georgian region of South Ossetia. Statements by Moscow that it was merely aiding the Ossetians are belied by reports of Russian troops in the region of Abkhazia, repeated Russian bombing raids across Georgia, and reports of a de facto Russian naval blockade of the Georgian coast. Whatever tensions and hostilities might have existed between Georgians and Ossetians, they in no way justify Moscow’s path of violent aggression. Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.
"The implications of Russian actions go beyond their threat to the territorial integrity and independence of a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors – such as Ukraine – for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided of Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics. The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors. We have other important strategic interests at stake in Georgia, especially the continued flow of oil through the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which Russia attempted to bomb in recent days; the operation of a critical communication and trade route from Georgia through Azerbaijan and Central Asia; and the integrity and influence of NATO, whose members reaffirmed last April the territorial integrity, independence, and sovereignty of Georgia.
"Yesterday Georgia withdrew its troops from South Ossetia and offered a ceasefire. The Russians responded by bombing the civilian airport in Georgia’s capital, Tblisi, and by stepping up its offensive in Abkhazia. This pattern of attack appears aimed not at restoring any status quo ante in South Ossetia, but rather at toppling the democratically elected government of Georgia. This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression.
"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government’s actions will have for Russia’s relationship with the U.S. and Europe. It is time we moved forward with a number of steps.
"The United States and our allies should continue efforts to bring a resolution before the UN Security Council condemning Russian aggression, noting the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and calling for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory. We should move ahead with the resolution despite Russian veto threats, and submit Russia to the court of world public opinion.
"NATO’s North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO’s future relationship with Russia, a Partnership for Peace nation. NATO’s decision to withhold a Membership Action Plan for Georgia might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia, and I urge the NATO allies to revisit the decision.
"The Secretary of State should begin high-level diplomacy, including visiting Europe, to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia. With the same aim, the U.S. should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France, and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis. The visit of French President Sarkozy to Moscow this week is a welcome expression of transatlantic activism.
"Working with allied partners, the U.S. should immediately consult with the Ukrainian government and other concerned countries on steps to secure their continued independence. This is particularly important as a number of Russian Black Sea fleet vessels currently in Georgian territorial waters are stationed at Russia’s base in the Ukrainian Crimea.
"The U.S. should work with Azerbaijan and Turkey, and other interested friends, to develop plans to strengthen the security of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.
"The U.S. should send immediate economic and humanitarian assistance to help mitigate the impact the invasion has had on the people of Georgia.
Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops, and enter into negotiations with Georgia. We must remind Russia’s leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world. World history is often made in remote, obscure countries. It is being made in Georgia today. It is the responsibility of the leading nations of the world to ensure that history continues to be a record of humanity’s progress toward respecting the values and security of free people.
"Thank you."
I dunno about you guys, but I know I'm not at all excited by what McCain said here, moreso worried, and what's more, it gives me chills to think what he means by every country outwardly condemning Russia's actions here. If that expression of condemnation happens to involve military power...holy cow I don't even want to think about it...
QUOTE
TBILISI (Reuters) - A Georgian official said on Monday Russian forces had captured the Georgian town of Gori, 60 km (35 miles) from the capital Tbilisi, but Russia denied it and Reuters witnesses saw no troops in the town.
"They have captured the city of Gori," the secretary of Georgia's National Security Council, Kakha Lomaia, told Reuters by telephone.
Moscow swiftly denied the statement.
"There are no Russian troops in Gori," a Russian Defence Ministry spokesman said.
Gori, small town of about 50,000 people 25 km from South Ossetia and the birthplace of Soviet leader Josef Stalin, lies on the main road linking the breakaway province and the rest of Georgia.
Earlier, a senior Georgian security official said forces had deployed to positions behind Gori in case of a Russian attack on Tbilisi.
Georgian worries about an attack on the capital increased after Russian troops moved from another breakaway region, Abkhazia, into the town of Senaki in western Georgia.
Two Reuters reporters in Gori said they saw no evidence of a substantial Russian presence in the town.
One said he saw Georgian soldiers leaving in convoys The second reporters said: "We are right now driving through the town and I see no trace of troops or military vehicles. It is absolutely deserted."
The reporter said he later saw a Georgian armored personnel carrier on fire east of Gori on the highway to Tbilisi. A long convoy of Georgian military trucks was heading away from Gori towards the capital.
(Reporting by James Kilner and Margarita Antidze; editing by Andrew Dobbie)
"They have captured the city of Gori," the secretary of Georgia's National Security Council, Kakha Lomaia, told Reuters by telephone.
Moscow swiftly denied the statement.
"There are no Russian troops in Gori," a Russian Defence Ministry spokesman said.
Gori, small town of about 50,000 people 25 km from South Ossetia and the birthplace of Soviet leader Josef Stalin, lies on the main road linking the breakaway province and the rest of Georgia.
Earlier, a senior Georgian security official said forces had deployed to positions behind Gori in case of a Russian attack on Tbilisi.
Georgian worries about an attack on the capital increased after Russian troops moved from another breakaway region, Abkhazia, into the town of Senaki in western Georgia.
Two Reuters reporters in Gori said they saw no evidence of a substantial Russian presence in the town.
One said he saw Georgian soldiers leaving in convoys The second reporters said: "We are right now driving through the town and I see no trace of troops or military vehicles. It is absolutely deserted."
The reporter said he later saw a Georgian armored personnel carrier on fire east of Gori on the highway to Tbilisi. A long convoy of Georgian military trucks was heading away from Gori towards the capital.
(Reporting by James Kilner and Margarita Antidze; editing by Andrew Dobbie)
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 11 2008, 09:16 AM)
Memories of the Tibet thread make me laugh at this.
Aw c'mon, I learned about these 'sovereignty' stuffs from the past experience. Tibet demands independence? Cool. Same thing for Abkhazia & South Ossetia, free from Georgian oppressions.
QUOTE (OP2K5 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 PM)
I dunno about you guys, but I know I'm not at all excited by what McCain said here, more so worried, and what's more, it gives me chills to think what he means by every country outwardly condemning Russia's actions here. If that expression of condemnation happens to involve military power...holy cow I don't even want to think about it...
WW3?
QUOTE (OP2K5 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 PM)
I dunno about you guys, but I know I'm not at all excited by what McCain said here, moreso worried, and what's more, it gives me chills to think what he means by every country outwardly condemning Russia's actions here. If that expression of condemnation happens to involve military power...holy cow I don't even want to think about it...
I don't know yet. I'm more worried about Russia and what they've been doing over the past few years than what McCain is saying now. Personally I think the writting has been on the wall and we just may have been hoping to ignore the obvious.
I'd hope that this can be resolved without escalating any further than it already has but thats just me.
The Russians just need to serve some mint juleps to the Georgians and they'll calm right down.
QUOTE (Caine @ Aug 11 2008, 01:05 PM)
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 11 2008, 09:16 AM)
Memories of the Tibet thread make me laugh at this.
Aw c'mon, I learned about these 'sovereignty' stuffs from the past experience. Tibet demands independence? Cool. Same thing for Abkhazia & South Ossetia, free from Georgian oppressions.
I totally agree with you on this FWIW
so my question is (b/c these posts are a little confusing), do you guys believe the people of an area have the right to declare independence from their soveriegn nation if they feel that nation does not give them proper government as they would have it?
I've come here simply to say that Georgia has taken enough of a beating damnit! Atlanta burned once, and Miss Scarlet knew she would go on, because tomorrow is another day.
Ok, I made a Gone with the Wind reference, I'll go now.
Ok, I made a Gone with the Wind reference, I'll go now.
Yeah. If an area decides through a democratic process that they wish to declare independence, I have no issue with that.
It would have serious consequences for their economy and national security, consequences that I doubt most people would think of while they are voting on an issue of nationalistic pride. However, if they want to do it, good for them.
It would have serious consequences for their economy and national security, consequences that I doubt most people would think of while they are voting on an issue of nationalistic pride. However, if they want to do it, good for them.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 11 2008, 07:01 PM)
so my question is (b/c these posts are a little confusing), do you guys believe the people of an area have the right to declare independence from their soveriegn nation if they feel that nation does not give them proper government as they would have it?
They have exactly whatever right exists within their governmental system to allow for succession. If that doesn't do it for them, they certainly have the option of fighting that government and trying to gain their own sovereignty, but not necessarily the right.
Saying "the right," I think, implies a moral high ground that not all people looking for sovereignty are going to have over their government. For instance, I think the Colonials had the moral high ground over the British, but the South did not have the moral high ground over the North.
Of course, that is exactly the moral high ground division to be expected from a product of the American public school system.
QUOTE
GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95
RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95
RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments
QUOTE
Georgia has asked China to use its influence to push for a resolution to a territorial flare-up with Russia. Georgian troops have pulled out of the breakaway province of South Ossetia after being overwhelmed by Russian forces. Daniel Schearf reports from Beijing.
Georgia's ambassador to China, Zaza Begashvili, met with China's foreign minister to seek support in the dispute with Russia.
Afterwards, Ambassador Begashvili held a briefing for a small group of foreign and Chinese journalists.
Begashvili would not say how the Chinese responded to the call for help. But, flanked by several embassy staff and supporters wearing red arm bands that read "Stop Russia!" he said he hoped China, as a great power, would make the right conclusion.
He says he is sure that China recognizes Georgia's borders, that it is as an independent state, and that it is a member of the United Nations. He says he is sure that China, as a member of the U.N. Security Council, will express its opposition to this aggression against an independent state.
China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang issued a statement during the weekend saying the conflict should be resolved peacefully through dialogue.
The statement joined the United States and other countries in calling for an immediate cease-fire.
Fighting between Georgian and Russian troops erupted after Georgian soldiers entered the breakaway province of South Ossetia last week to try to re-take it.
Russia counter-attacked, driving Georgian troops out and bombing another separatist province - Abkhazia.
U.S. President George Bush condemned Russia for what he called a "disproportionate" response and spreading the conflict outside South Ossetia.
Bush made the comments while in Beijing for the Summer Olympics and after meeting with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who was also in Beijing for the games.
The conflict has not prevented athletes from Georgia or Russia from competing in the Olympics.
"Both national Olympic Committees, very much in the spirit of the games, continue with sport," said International Olympic Committee spokeswoman Giselle Davies.
Georgia is a U.S. ally and sent soldiers to Iraq in support of the U.S.-led invasion. The United States is airlifting those troops back to Georgia, sparking bitter criticism from Prime Minister Putin.
Moscow says more than 2,000 people have been killed in fighting this past week, but the figures have not been independently verified.
South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s and allied itself with Russia.
Georgia's ambassador to China, Zaza Begashvili, met with China's foreign minister to seek support in the dispute with Russia.
Afterwards, Ambassador Begashvili held a briefing for a small group of foreign and Chinese journalists.
Begashvili would not say how the Chinese responded to the call for help. But, flanked by several embassy staff and supporters wearing red arm bands that read "Stop Russia!" he said he hoped China, as a great power, would make the right conclusion.
He says he is sure that China recognizes Georgia's borders, that it is as an independent state, and that it is a member of the United Nations. He says he is sure that China, as a member of the U.N. Security Council, will express its opposition to this aggression against an independent state.
China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang issued a statement during the weekend saying the conflict should be resolved peacefully through dialogue.
The statement joined the United States and other countries in calling for an immediate cease-fire.
Fighting between Georgian and Russian troops erupted after Georgian soldiers entered the breakaway province of South Ossetia last week to try to re-take it.
Russia counter-attacked, driving Georgian troops out and bombing another separatist province - Abkhazia.
U.S. President George Bush condemned Russia for what he called a "disproportionate" response and spreading the conflict outside South Ossetia.
Bush made the comments while in Beijing for the Summer Olympics and after meeting with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who was also in Beijing for the games.
The conflict has not prevented athletes from Georgia or Russia from competing in the Olympics.
"Both national Olympic Committees, very much in the spirit of the games, continue with sport," said International Olympic Committee spokeswoman Giselle Davies.
Georgia is a U.S. ally and sent soldiers to Iraq in support of the U.S.-led invasion. The United States is airlifting those troops back to Georgia, sparking bitter criticism from Prime Minister Putin.
Moscow says more than 2,000 people have been killed in fighting this past week, but the figures have not been independently verified.
South Ossetia broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s and allied itself with Russia.
QUOTE
Russia 'ends Georgia operations'
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says.
He told officials he had decided to end the campaign after restoring security for Russian citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
Before Mr Medvedev's statement, there were fresh reports of Russian warplanes bombing the Georgian town of Gori.
The conflict began last Thursday, when Russia responded to Georgian military action in South Ossetia.
But Russia has also bombed areas outside the breakaway region - including Gori, which is less than 80km (50 miles) from the Georgian capital Tbilisi.
On Tuesday, witnesses told the BBC that several people had been killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says.
He told officials he had decided to end the campaign after restoring security for Russian citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
Before Mr Medvedev's statement, there were fresh reports of Russian warplanes bombing the Georgian town of Gori.
The conflict began last Thursday, when Russia responded to Georgian military action in South Ossetia.
But Russia has also bombed areas outside the breakaway region - including Gori, which is less than 80km (50 miles) from the Georgian capital Tbilisi.
On Tuesday, witnesses told the BBC that several people had been killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town.
Well, what I gotta say? "Control the media, control the mind of the masses."
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 11 2008, 09:05 PM)
Of course, that is exactly the moral high ground division to be expected from a product of the American public school system.
TRUTH
well in the states in the south its worse. you know when they teach "civil war" history around here, the president of the CSA is never mentioned. i could go on but thats another topic.
Who else if for The Independent Republic of California, we'll rally together to fight the system!
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 07:05 AM)
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 11 2008, 09:05 PM)
Of course, that is exactly the moral high ground division to be expected from a product of the American public school system.
TRUTH
But, beyond my own biases about America's Historical bids for sovereignty and more to the point, no I don't think all people have an inalienable right to break away from a government they don't like, because then government has no power - good or bad - if anyone can just walk away from the rules/laws/etc. that they don't like.
I think everyone should have an inalienable right to be able to make an impact on the system of government that governs them, so that they can work towards a system more in touch with what they want from government, but not to just run away whenever things don't go there way, no.
Disclaimer: this post is discussing the broader them of succession, and is not reflective of my opinion on current events, which I am admittedly too ignorant of to pick a side with any conviction. I'm reading up though. I swear.
secession.
which reminds me. a while back someone pointed ou that TX does not have the right to secede. you are correct. however since TX entered the union under treaty, they could technically break treaty.
which reminds me. a while back someone pointed ou that TX does not have the right to secede. you are correct. however since TX entered the union under treaty, they could technically break treaty.
Words and Hobbes don't get along.
s'ok nomolos and internets donts get along.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 11:20 AM)
which reminds me. a while back someone pointed ou that TX does not have the right to secede.
That was me!
I said that Texas is not the only state in the union allowed to secede if it chose to do so (which is a common myth/urban legend.) What is true is that Texas only has as much "right" to secede as any of the other 49 states.
And Texas was not brought into the union by treaty, though there was an attempt to do this before its annexation. Texas was annexed by a Joint Resolution of Congress. In fact, the JRC granted Texas immediate statehood while the failed treaty would have only made Texas a territory.
FUN FACT: the terms of the JRC also state that Texas can subdivide itself into five smaller states.
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 12 2008, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 11:20 AM)
which reminds me. a while back someone pointed ou that TX does not have the right to secede.
That was me!
I said that Texas is not the only state in the union allowed to secede if it chose to do so (which is a common myth/urban legend.) What is true is that Texas only has as much "right" to secede as any of the other 49 states.
And Texas was not brought into the union by treaty, though there was an attempt to do this before its annexation. Texas was annexed by a Joint Resolution of Congress. In fact, the JRC granted Texas immediate statehood while the failed treaty would have only made Texas a territory.
FUN FACT: the terms of the JRC also state that Texas can subdivide itself into five smaller states.
so Texas' governor lied? that's where I got that. sorry.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust Rick Perry so much.
What actually happened is that James Polk signed a treaty of annexation with the Republic of Texas in 1844, but the senate rejected the treaty. Polk knew that the treaty would never pass the Senate because it required a two-thirds majority, so he changed tack and tried to get the annexation passed as a joint resolution, which only required a simple majority.
What actually happened is that James Polk signed a treaty of annexation with the Republic of Texas in 1844, but the senate rejected the treaty. Polk knew that the treaty would never pass the Senate because it required a two-thirds majority, so he changed tack and tried to get the annexation passed as a joint resolution, which only required a simple majority.
From Wiki..
Okay, he's really a funny guy.
Abkhazian & South Ossetian breakaway governments clearly stated their bold support for Russian forces, even aiding them with more manpower and tanks. And this guy, who started the war first, now try to accuse Russia as occupier of two breakaway republics that depends on Russia for their independence?
Oh, gonna be a great show later on December 2008.
QUOTE
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said Georgia would declare Russian peacekeepers occupiers and the breakaway states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia occupied territory.
Okay, he's really a funny guy.
Abkhazian & South Ossetian breakaway governments clearly stated their bold support for Russian forces, even aiding them with more manpower and tanks. And this guy, who started the war first, now try to accuse Russia as occupier of two breakaway republics that depends on Russia for their independence?
QUOTE
Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, Secretary-General of NATO, said Georgia remains a candidate for NATO membership in spite of the conflict.
Oh, gonna be a great show later on December 2008.
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Aug 10 2008, 10:13 PM)
Kosovo must have the right of self determination!
Georgia must have the right to protect it's territorial integrity!
Georgia must have the right to protect it's territorial integrity!
There's just as much
on the Russian side you know. Serbia has the right to protect its territorial integrity!
Abkhazia and South Ossetia have the right to self determination!
FTR I'm kind of in agreement with Hobbes on the fact that there is no universal right for people to just break away from a government if they don't like how it does business (then again I find the concept of universal rights regarding anything to be amusing on a certain level).
A government would cease to function if you allow anyone the right to just walk away. A people only have that right if the state in question grants them that.
US states don't have the right to separate because the US government has made it very clear that this right does not exist within the American Union.
Contrarily Quebec (or any other province) does have the right to separate from Canada provided they follow certain guidelines, as established by the Canadian Supreme Court and Parliament.
Now I'm not sure what Georgia's policy is regarding separation, but judging from their response they're probably not keen on the idea. So in that respect the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia do not have the right to separation, as it was not granted by the Georgian government.
The pragmatic and realistic truth is, however, that non of that matters. Sure, the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia lack the right to separate, but the fact of the matter is that they will separate with the help of Russian tanks and guns.
Likewise if Texas or any other US state separated from the Union, and then was able to defend its territorial sovereignty from US forces, then that state would have successfully separated despite what the US government has to say regarding separation.
From what I know about this particular situation, the Georgian provinces in question want independence, and asked Russia for help. Russia's responded. Because of this Russian help these provinces will obtain a greater degree of autonomy.
Russian and Georgian forces met in battle, and Russia emerged the winner. Therefore their cause has the most validity.
On the other hand, Russia does have to watch itself. It's great if they're just helping these two provinces achieve independence from a nation that don't want any part in, but that's where it has to stop.
In the end the Georgian government and people have the right to preserve Georgian territorial integrity in Georgia-proper. If Russia crosses the line they go from helpful neighbour to aggressor.
A government would cease to function if you allow anyone the right to just walk away. A people only have that right if the state in question grants them that.
US states don't have the right to separate because the US government has made it very clear that this right does not exist within the American Union.
Contrarily Quebec (or any other province) does have the right to separate from Canada provided they follow certain guidelines, as established by the Canadian Supreme Court and Parliament.
Now I'm not sure what Georgia's policy is regarding separation, but judging from their response they're probably not keen on the idea. So in that respect the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia do not have the right to separation, as it was not granted by the Georgian government.
The pragmatic and realistic truth is, however, that non of that matters. Sure, the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia lack the right to separate, but the fact of the matter is that they will separate with the help of Russian tanks and guns.
Likewise if Texas or any other US state separated from the Union, and then was able to defend its territorial sovereignty from US forces, then that state would have successfully separated despite what the US government has to say regarding separation.
From what I know about this particular situation, the Georgian provinces in question want independence, and asked Russia for help. Russia's responded. Because of this Russian help these provinces will obtain a greater degree of autonomy.
Russian and Georgian forces met in battle, and Russia emerged the winner. Therefore their cause has the most validity.
On the other hand, Russia does have to watch itself. It's great if they're just helping these two provinces achieve independence from a nation that don't want any part in, but that's where it has to stop.
In the end the Georgian government and people have the right to preserve Georgian territorial integrity in Georgia-proper. If Russia crosses the line they go from helpful neighbour to aggressor.
a guy once said "Any question settled through warfare or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever".
or something like that. take it however you like.
or something like that. take it however you like.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 03:54 PM)
a guy once said "Any question settled through warfare or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever".
or something like that. take it however you like.
or something like that. take it however you like.
Yeah, but he was wrong. Lots of questions get answered through warfare...like, for instance, "Who would win in a fight waged in the 1860s, the Union states or the Confederates?" That is a question laid to rest.
Government doesn't function if anyone can just take their ball and go home when they don't get their way. No one has a right to live in a tiny little bubble - a border running between them and those that don't agree with them 100%.
Sorry if you don't like that fact of life, but there it is.
I said take it however you like it...jeez man, relax.
but IMO your example doesn't relate. a question like that could get answered but he was referencing the legality of it. not who could win the fight. but who has the law on their side in the fight.
does Georgia...does Russia...do the areas wanting independence? those are the relevant questions to the statement I quoted.
I'm not talking about the civil war anymore. I just happened to know that quote.
but IMO your example doesn't relate. a question like that could get answered but he was referencing the legality of it. not who could win the fight. but who has the law on their side in the fight.
does Georgia...does Russia...do the areas wanting independence? those are the relevant questions to the statement I quoted.
I'm not talking about the civil war anymore. I just happened to know that quote.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 05:57 PM)
I said take it however you like it...jeez man, relax.
I'm not un-relaxed. Sorry if I gave a different vibe.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 05:57 PM)
but IMO your example doesn't relate. a question like that could get answered but he was referencing the legality of it. not who could win the fight. but who has the law on their side in the fight.
Then he should have asked, "When you're doing battle against your own government, who cares who has the law on their side?" The law is irrelevant when you battle your own government.
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 05:57 PM)
I'm not talking about the civil war anymore. I just happened to know that quote.
The quote by the president of the Confederacy? Yeah, totally not about the Civil War.
I was relating it to the current event though not in a continuing the civil war discussion way. its one of the only quotes I know by heart so I saw a chance to use it.
although maybe we need a secession thread to discuss the legality of any seceding govt in an ongoing way.
although maybe we need a secession thread to discuss the legality of any seceding govt in an ongoing way.
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 12 2008, 08:45 PM)
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 03:54 PM)
a guy once said "Any question settled through warfare or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever".
or something like that. take it however you like.
or something like that. take it however you like.
Yeah, but he was wrong. Lots of questions get answered through warfare...like, for instance, "Who would win in a fight waged in the 1860s, the Union states or the Confederates?" That is a question laid to rest.
QUOTE
"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - Lt. Col. Jean Dubois
QUOTE (Stormtrooper53 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:30 AM)
QUOTE (Hobbes-timus Prime @ Aug 12 2008, 08:45 PM)
QUOTE (Nomolos @ Aug 12 2008, 03:54 PM)
a guy once said "Any question settled through warfare or in disregard of the law, must remain unsettled forever".
or something like that. take it however you like.
or something like that. take it however you like.
Yeah, but he was wrong. Lots of questions get answered through warfare...like, for instance, "Who would win in a fight waged in the 1860s, the Union states or the Confederates?" That is a question laid to rest.
QUOTE
"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - Lt. Col. Jean Dubois
QFT.
The truth of the matter is, and I feel talking about the US Civil War is justified seeing as both it and the current situation in Georgia deals with the concept of separation, that the Confederate States of America did have some legal ground to stand on concerning them leaving the American Union.
The US government had not outlawed separation, nor had the nature of the American Union itself been settled. At the time the opinion that the Union was made out of equal, sovereign states who could leave if the Federal government broke certain rights was just as prevalent as the view that all the states were subservient to the Federal government. In fact Lincoln's predecessor, James Buchanan, stated that the Federal government had no legal authority to try and bring the Confederacy back into the Union. The US only geared up for war when after Lincoln assumed office.
So essentially the US Civil War was fought over the concept of the American Union. Slavery just happened to be the catalyst. The two sides sent armies to engage in open warfare, and the north/Union/side that argued that states were subservient to the Federal government won out.
Slavery, the concept of state's rights, the rights of states to separate, the very nature of the American Union, it was all settled by brute force.
Look at the current situation. Thanks to Russian might these Georgian provinces will receive a greater degree of autonomy (whether that means complete independence or not remains to be seen). The fact that the provinces lacked the right to separate under Georgian law is meaningless, simply because the separatists have bigger guns backing them. Warfare will indeed settle this question, and at the moment it seems it will be settled in favour of the Russian/Abkhazian/South Ossetian side.
So yes, Hobbes is right. States/provinces/territories/what have you don't have the right to just walk away. If they did, governments would be powerless. I would also add that what the government says about the matter is a non-issue, as force will resolve it one way or an other.
So my opinion on the whole thing is that if you want to separate, you better have a pretty big set of guns, because force is the only way you're going to get your independence. You certainly don't have the "right" to it. Luckily for Abkhazia and South Ossetia they have Russia to supply said guns. Good for them I suppose.
*googles "Lt. Col. Jean Dubois"*
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