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Thad_theImpaler
Interesting read:

QUOTE
By Kevin Myers

Thursday July 10 2008

No. It will not do. Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilization in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us, yet again. It is nearly 25 years since Ethiopia's (and Bob Geldof's) famous Feed The World campaign, and in that time Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78 million today.

So why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none. To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count.

One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of . . .

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a priapic, Kalashnikov-bearing hearty, siring children whenever the whim takes him.

There is, no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system; but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.

It will win no friends, and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous, letter-writing wrathful, a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously. So be it.

But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Famine, with this or that lazy analogy. There is no comparison. Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30pc. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules, Ethiopia's has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness. Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, Kalashnikov-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts.

Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually

hyperactive indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world.

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense. Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the next president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against infection. Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.

Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters. Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa.

They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation. By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million: The equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley.

So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them? Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity. But that is not good enough.

For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed.

It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.

If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts. Oh good: then what?I know. Let them all come here. Yes, that's an idea.

kmyers@independent.ie
Lord Madhammer
Wow, that's some hate.

IIRC Live Aid didn't actually raise all that much money, on account of it being so friggin' expensive and stuff.
( . Y . )
Wow....did someone give him AIDS or something?
Snapes on a Plane
I'm not educated enough in the goings-on in Africa to take any official stance. However, even though it seems a bit harsh, I can see where the writer is coming from to an extant.

MikePrime
Africa sucks.
trench
QUOTE (Snapes on a Plane @ Jul 14 2008, 10:10 AM) *
I'm not educated enough in the goings-on in Africa to take any official stance. However, even though it seems a bit harsh, I can see where the writer is coming from to an extant.


Yeah, I think his overall arguement is valid (are we really "helping" a people by sustaining a population far above the carrying capacity of their available resources?), but it could have been written in a less vitriolic way.
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (trench @ Jul 14 2008, 12:18 PM) *
QUOTE (Snapes on a Plane @ Jul 14 2008, 10:10 AM) *
I'm not educated enough in the goings-on in Africa to take any official stance. However, even though it seems a bit harsh, I can see where the writer is coming from to an extant.


Yeah, I think his overall arguement is valid (are we really "helping" a people by sustaining a population far above the carrying capacity of their available resources?), but it could have been written in a less vitriolic way.

I think it's valid if they're like spotted owls or manatees or something... but then Africans aren't really people anyway, are they?
( . Y . )
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Jul 14 2008, 12:20 PM) *
but then Africans aren't really people anyway, are they?

This

But I guess not all people care about all people...
eneyekay
I agree with the article. The guy is talking a lot of sense imo.
MikePrime
The article reads better if you imagine the John Cleese saying those words.
Lord Madhammer
or Hitler, lol
Agent Zero
LMH is right (though comparing the author of the article to Hitler was a little harsh). We're not talking about a species of animal. If that were the case then yeah, I would say thin the heard for their own good.

That's not the case though, we're not dealing with animals, we're dealing with people. And letting people starve to death when you could otherwise do something to help them just isn't Kosher.
To an extent I agree with the author of the article in so much that I have to question if the current strategy regarding Africa is working. I don't agree with his solution, however, which is to let them starve to death "for their own good."
I don't have an alternate solution of my own. I know the current way of doing things is doing nothing to relieve the situation, but on the other hand I know the solution isn't to passive-aggressively slaughter millions of innocent people.

So I guess what I'm saying is that those scientist-type folks better be close to that miracle crop breakthrough.
ROSEDOGGYDOG
So how about instead of giving food, we give them education...I know, I know wtf am I thinking in getting people to start dealing with their own sh!t once they understand their own problems...

Up next, the pro's of natural selection.
Lord Madhammer
Africa is a continent FYI... made up of many many different countries... it's not just one single group of people

not to interrupt the discussion or anything
ROSEDOGGYDOG
Eygptian lover, baby.
Tripredacus
Since when was Africa part of the US Navy?
Glue
Now I don't know that whatever aid sent is responsible for giving them lives of "brutal circumcision" (the author seems to have an overdeveloped sense of fear of the knife -- how do you circumcise girls?), but "Letting Africans starve" is flawed by implying some sort of obligation on the part of other nations to keep them fed. The population growth responds quite readily to food, as can be seen. More food (breakthroughs in food production) isn't going to bring stability to that population. Of course, understanding population mechanics sufficiently to help stabilize them is a far cry more difficult than "give starving person food".
Lord Madhammer
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 07:45 PM) *
how do you circumcise girls?

don't ask
Tripredacus
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Jul 14 2008, 06:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 07:45 PM) *
how do you circumcise girls?

don't ask


HAX!
Bestimus Mucho
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 08:45 PM) *
Now I don't know that whatever aid sent is responsible for giving them lives of "brutal circumcision" (the author seems to have an overdeveloped sense of fear of the knife -- how do you circumcise girls?), but "Letting Africans starve" is flawed by implying some sort of obligation on the part of other nations to keep them fed. The population growth responds quite readily to food, as can be seen. More food (breakthroughs in food production) isn't going to bring stability to that population. Of course, understanding population mechanics sufficiently to help stabilize them is a far cry more difficult than "give starving person food".


So you're saying we should teach them to fish?

Can we also teach them that while you can resent someone for being a different race, religion, ethnicity or whatever, it's not cool to try to wipe them off the face of the earth because you want the crappy piece of land that won't grow anything that they have?
I.S.T.
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Jul 14 2008, 08:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 07:45 PM) *
how do you circumcise girls?

don't ask

I AGREE WITH THIS GENTLEMAN
( . Y . )
QUOTE (I.S.T. @ Jul 14 2008, 11:14 PM) *
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Jul 14 2008, 08:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 07:45 PM) *
how do you circumcise girls?

don't ask

I AGREE WITH THIS GENTLEMAN

Seriously...it occurs, and it is gruesome.
Wildling
QUOTE (( . Y . ) @ Jul 15 2008, 12:35 AM) *
QUOTE (I.S.T. @ Jul 14 2008, 11:14 PM) *
QUOTE (Lord Madhammer @ Jul 14 2008, 08:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Glue @ Jul 14 2008, 07:45 PM) *
how do you circumcise girls?

don't ask

I AGREE WITH THIS GENTLEMAN

Seriously...it occurs, and it is gruesome.

I'd listen to these guys if I were you Glue. Trust me.
Sularias
yeah you'd rather not know.
slugpitcher
according to the movie Barbershop."anything extra they just clip it off"

Glue
Thanks. It was a rhetorical question. smiletf.gif
Lord Madhammer
UNTIL NOW
The Diesel
How about if you don't want to give money to Africa, then don't give your money to Africa? As long as no-one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to give money to Africa, why should you care if other people want to give money to Africa? It's their money.
Glue
I'm not sure how it works in Scotland, but whenever the US gov gives aid (or tax exemptions, or anything else) to some nation or group, it comes out of the taxpayer. So if you're paying taxes, you don't have a choice for those dollars, other than your proportion of say in what your government ultimately does.

Of course, Africa does give the world oil, diamonds, and some other stuffs I'm sure I don't know off the top of my head.
The Diesel
My boss is from Nigeria. Everyone I've ever met from Nigeria are extremely intelligent and laid back.
Glue
I'd think they'd have to be to keep successfully bilking people with the Spanish Prisoner.
Asthaloth
QUOTE (The Diesel @ Jul 16 2008, 08:18 PM) *
My boss is from Nigeria. Everyone I've ever met from Nigeria are extremely intelligent and laid back.



How many Nigerians have you met?

And for that matter, how many are still in Nigeria?
Haggisjin
I've been trying to avoid this topic..... because I know I'll end up just writing a giant wall of text words.gif.


As opposed to my normal two post laconic answers.... sweatbead.gif


But..... yeah... a lot of the entrenched poverty, tribal hatred and feuding, lack of education, corrruption, and misappropriation of resources are all DIRECTLY a result of policies employed during european colonisation of the continent over the last two centuries or so.

Take, just for example, this extremely oversimplified history the Rwandan Genocide. (I can use something I learned in high school! Yay!)

step 1.

Originally the Tutsi and Hutu lived together, mostly in peace. They may not have particularly liked each other, but everything was fairly stable and they were neighbours. The Tutsi were the minority and the Hutu the majority. There existed a Mwami, or king, who was Tutsi.

So, a large number of Tutsi were peasants, and the ruling elite were a small percentage of Tutsi.

step 2.

When German colonists came, along with some fun racial concepts of what constituted superiority, the Tutsi's where deemed more "european" than the Hutus. They also converted to Roman catholicism more readily so that gave them an advantage too. The colonists and church officials thus took favour on the Tutsis and put them in charge of the Hutus who were pretty much made into a class of farmers.

Then they pretty much solidified the Tutsi as a ruling class, and the Hutus as a permanent lower class.

step 3.

European economic practices weakened perceived cultural differences between the Tutsi and the Hutu. The best example of this is the imposition of a tax on everyone, regardless of tribal affiliation. Thus Hutus started seeing themselves as equal to the Tutsi. Also, the Tutsi raised cattle, whereas the Hutu were farmers. Cattle are worth more than vegetables, thus the Tutsi were inherently wealthier. Introduce money into this, and suddenly it doesn't matter who you are, it's possible for a farmer to be wealthier than some cattle herder.

step 4.

World War I happened and they got buttraped helping out Germany.

step 5.

After WWI the League of Nations gave Rwanda to Belgium. Belgium instituted a racial heirarchy (based on eugenics theories and other bullshot) made everyone carry an ethnic identification card, and made it official policy to discriminate against the Hutu in favour of the Tutsi This extend to both political power and access to education.

step 6.

After WWII, the whole racial superiority thing didn't have as many followers. Thus various european sources sought to end Tutsi dominance, and give greater freedom to the Hutu. Eventually Belgium instituted an electoral process, open to all citizens by secret ballot. Hutus (who were the majority of the population) obvioulsy made huge gains, to the surprise of none.

step 7.

Tutsi's began getting annoyed at losing power, and at the various kings imposing reforms that lowered their status even more. This leads to a few assassinations, and eventually a Belgian assisted revolt by the Hutu. Tutsi get angry, try to assassinate the Hutu's political leader, leading to a genocide of about 20'000 to 100'000 Tutsi by the hutu. About 150'000 Tutsi go into exile in the neighbouring countries. Tutsi's are used as politically convenient scapegoats for everything wrong in the country.

step 8.

Hutus practically forbid Tutsis from having any political power. Quota systems were put in that restricted Tutsi to only 10% of school and university seats, and civil servant jobs. Seeing as how the economy was shot, there weren't that many jobs to begin with. The Belgian ethnic ID cards were kept, only this time used to discriminate against the Tutsi. Mixed marriages forbidden, etc.

Eventually it got so bad that a Hutu could MURDER a Tutsi and never even be arrested.

Of course, the outside world did nothing to help, as the government was nice and friendly and let the US use Rwanda as a stepping stone for the CIA TO FIGHT THE COMMIES!! And because they helped the Catholic church spread christianity, the Vatican was cool with them as well.

step 9.

Military Coup in the 1970's, military rule for 20 years or so. Eventual reforms were proposed, etc, particularly after France starts pressuring the ruling Hutu. Tutsi are still the political scapegoat of choice for everything.

step 10.

Tutsi get tired of waiting to be able to return from exile, and major Tutsi politcal/military group invaded Rwanda hoping to make the government make some advances.

HOWEVER,

The Hutu population saw this as an attempt to reignite Tutsi control and Hutu submission. Hutu's are pissed and tensions get even worse. It pretty much escalates into a conventional civil war.

THEN

The plane carrying the president of Rwanda is shot down. Hutus go batshit insane and go on a genocidal rampage killing everyone who's Tutsi, and everyone who isn't also killing Tutsis.

It isn't helped by the US, France, and Belgium refusing to admit that there's a genocide going on, thus preventing UN intervention.

step 11.

Eventually the Tutsi kind of win. Hundreds of thousands of Hutu go into exile fearing retribution, causing a huge humanitarian crisis. Things settle down after a while, and now EVEN DISCUSSING ETHNICITY in Rwanda can put you in jail. Now instead of focusing of ethnic divides they are trying to develop the country, improve infrastructure, education, etc.

step 12.

????

step 13.

PROFIT



So basically the moral of the story is, we can throw up our hands and decry them as a bunch of AIDS giving savages, but a most of the problems are a direct result of European colonial policies. And this isn't unique to Rwanda, it happened in most nations in the African Congo. You also have a western and soviet nations using Africa as a chessboard during the cold war. And all of the fracticious harm various churches and missionaries have done to spread "the good word". (Don't use condoms boys and girls, they send you straight to hell! God will be happy you keep having children you can't feed and spread STI's around!) And primarily western foreign companies bleeding the mineral and natural resource wealth of Africa dry for their profit (and OUR benefit).

Do they need to take responsibilty for themselves? Yeah, of course they do.

Do we need to take responsibilty for how much we've fucked them up? Damn right we do. I read an interesting study (which I can't find on google atm) comparing traumatised societies that have had genocides(eg. Serbia, Sudan, etc) to orphaned elephants (stay with me). Without appropriate guidance from elder figures, societies will enter a talespin of violence that gets worse with each increasing generation. Due to the poverty and violence, things like education decrease, which then itself leads to an increase in poverty and violence. Eventually the only thing that can stop it is external intervention (bringing in an adult male elephant as an example for the young males), such as the UN going in and stopping things.

What we do now for Africa is like putting a band-aid on their skinned knee, but ignoring the fact that they've had both feet chopped off and saw their parents murdered. It's a misdirection of resources, and if governments truly want to help the various nations of Africa out, it's going to take a lot more than the current self aggrandising donations and aid packages they give now. Two Cents.gif

Not that I have a comprehensive solution to fix an entire fucking continent or anything.... bonkslurp.gif

words.gif
FREEFALLL666
One of the little known (To the west) but MAJOR causes of the spread of AIDS in Africa is down to a belief supported and recommended by Shamans that like the OP Article water on the gonads "cure" is a horrifying one, the unsolicited interaction of a child. If the symptoms persist they may be recommended to try it again. Problem being that to the rational scientific mind (Rational Scientists : oxymoron) there is no cure, there is now an extremely traumatised youth or youths who now have to grow up 99.9999% likely infected themselves. The lack of education on the subject of real medicine causes these children now adults to turn to a Shaman who recommends....

Whatever money we send them should go to education and farming equipment/seeds. We should supervise MOST use of the money to ensure that it is used wisely.

GIVE A MAN A FISH AND HE WILL EAT FOR A DAY TEACH THE MAN TO FISH AND HE WILL FEAST A LIFETIME.

oh and Haggis [After WWII, the whole racial superiority thing didn't have as many followers.] = major rofl.gifs
Haggisjin
QUOTE (FREEFALLL666 @ Jul 20 2008, 04:55 PM) *
oh and Haggis [After WWII, the whole racial superiority thing didn't have as many followers.] = major rofl.gifs


You read that far?! crazy.gif


But yeah, the only real way to solve the majority of Africa's problems is education (and forgiving national debts, but nobody wants to do that). And the reason why education is so ridiculously poor in many African nations is due to an intentional lack of it historically. It's much easier to keep control of an unintelligent, superstitious population.

*inserts pithy comment about the US always being distracted by teh GAYZ wanting to marry*

Now the real question is how you can force education on a population that may be unwilling (homeschooling lol) or where a government views it as a possible threat to it's military power.......
FREEFALLL666
QUOTE (Haggisjin @ Jul 20 2008, 08:56 PM) *
QUOTE (FREEFALLL666 @ Jul 20 2008, 04:55 PM) *
oh and Haggis [After WWII, the whole racial superiority thing didn't have as many followers.] = major rofl.gifs


You read that far?! crazy.gif


But yeah, the only real way to solve the majority of Africa's problems is education (and forgiving national debts, but nobody wants to do that). And the reason why education is so ridiculously poor in many African nations is due to an intentional lack of it historically. It's much easier to keep control of an unintelligent, superstitious population.

*inserts pithy comment about the US always being distracted by teh GAYZ wanting to marry*

Now the real question is how you can force education on a population that may be unwilling (homeschooling lol) or where a government views it as a possible threat to it's military power.......

B1 Just cause I like a good badtaste joke and a barnstormer of an argument doesnt mean this UberNerd turns down the opportunity to learn. Hell I would spend from now untill the universe collapsed right in on itself {Level 2} in college/uni just to keep learning to keep knowing,, Just dont expect me to learn Welsh..

B2 The truest most vile hate comes under a thin veil of "Love"
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