Ok So Israel seized from the Palestinians after World War 2 as I guess a form of reparations to the Jews.

Justification? The holy land was taken from the Jews earlier by the Muslims

Middle ages full of back and forth between the western world and the Muslims

Anyway its always seemed to me that the justification for the Allies delivering the Holy land into the hands of the Jews was " it was taken from them, they were there first"

Except by the bible, they weren't, they were led by the lord from egypt and through the desert for 40 years at which time they were supposed to commit genocide against the people there and seize the land as their promised land.

So by the who was there first rule the Muslims really were there first.

So does that mean our supposedly secular government's justification is based only on the biblical proclamation.

We often vilify the Muslims, but if you really look at it it seems like we wronged them.


Now granted Israel isn't that big and they'd be way better off if they'd just let it go but when it comes down to it I would say that they have a little bit of a point.


Just thought it would be interesting to talk about both sides of things.

"you're not even fukking jewish walter"



Its amazing like I see a vision of the future and it shows this thread being a big argument ending in a lock.

info and stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Yeah I've read that

and the History of Palestine too


I guess if you really want to be legalistic about it you could say that the holy land belongs to The Mousterian Neanderthals but since they're not around anymore...


and yes I paraphrased a bit on the creation and trials of Israel/Palestine buts its not like the gist of it was wrong.

The problem with this whole "whose land is it anyway" debate is that after a certain point (IMO), you cede control of your land if you're not actually owning it for like, a thousand years or something. I think there's a simplistic thought process regarding Israel that goes something like "they owned this land in the Bible, why not now" but the Bible was like thousands of years ago.

Then again, Israel does own it now, and they're not about to go away. I think it's kind of shitty for the Israelis to be all grumpy about sharing land with the people they took it from, but then again the Palestinians lost my sympathy when they decided that blowing themselves up in public was an appropriate way to address the situation.

I have to wonder how Americans would react if aliens (extraterrestrial, Mexican, whatever) came here, decided to just form their own country an' stuff against our will and our perception of what's legal, whether we'd react with violence.

Yeah I don't expect the Jews to pack up and leave. One has to ask if a Palestinian State was created alongside Israel (wasn't that supposed to be the plan all along?) would it appease the Muslims.


I've heard the "two state solution" term thrown around a lot, but if thats the solution whats taking so long?


Woudl this really bring peace or has Islam totally been hijacked by an agenda of Muslim Religious World Domination?



What is everyone's motivation really. Does America really care about The Jews in Israel or is it just that they are an Ally in the main oil rich region in the world?

...which isn't quite the same thing.

Blowing themselves up is fine. It's when they take other people with them that I have a problem with it. I never saw a Tibetan monk burn try to burn someone else when he set himself aflame.

I think it depends on how successful they are at it. If they're trying to take the land, then we get to fight. If they actually do take the land, then we lose and it sucks to be us.

Hm.. not sure how a Palestinian would see them as any different..

But should we blame the NATION for the actions of a few desperate people?

My understanding is that the Jews treat the Palestinians horribly anyway.
I think its hard for westerners with their SUVs and internet fanboy sites to fully understand the level of desperation that must be present when people feel that suicide is the only option.

Has the rest of the world Listened to any of Palestinian's "appropriate" complaints? or pleas for help?

I'm not really arguing any point - but genuinely asking the question...

isn't that what the U.S. did with the Natives and then to the Confederacy?

I am not in any way defending the practices of the C.S.A., I am merely pointing out that the U.S. did exactly what he mentions in his post twice before the hundred year mark.

You're right, it's not the entire Palestinian people who are responsible for that stuff.

But I'll tell you who gets screwed over there -- the Palestinian Christians. They got no friends.

Really, though... it's not like the modern nation of Israel has a temple and a priesthood and is run by Yahweh or anything. People who aren't Jewish can live there and be fine (people like Palestinians). But it's when people get a bug up their ass about whose name is on the title deed that things get ugly.

Cuz you know that the Israelis are doing a way better job of governing the country than the Palestinians would.

Clearly, blowing others up never works, except when it does.

*remembers learing about this, this is about the time when Britian said you guy are f'ckn crazy, we's out, peace*

And then the next smarties stepped in. .... waitaminit..

Yeah I think their attitude was more like "you want it so much, fine take it"

whereas with the Israelis they're like "nope sorry we ain't moving"

One of the stories I heard thats pretty sad is that older people who lived in the area before the Jews took over can walk by the house they grew up in and see the lands that belonged to their families but the new government gave those properties to their settlers and of course grandma still tells that story as they walk past that house.


I can imagine I'd be pretty pissed about that. Heck I get mad about some things that went on with the Irish Potato Famine.

But not mad enough to blow anything up.

You know, I just thought of this...

England finally secured the holy land...

Sularius, not to get picky but the "Muslims" were not there first. There were no Muslims anywhere until around 600 AD. As far as I know there's no reason to believe that whatever Semitic or pre-Semitic peoples were living in the Levant prior to Biblical times share any direct lineage with the Arab who converted to Islam thousands of years later and decided to conquer the Holy Land.

And you're assuming that the Bible can be taken literally. There's no evidence of the Hebrews ever having been captives in Egypt (at least not in Egyptian records) or of the Exodus, and they probably didn't take the land from any indigenous people either. In fact there's a much better chance they were the indigenous people. Besides, if you're going to go by the Old Testament then shouldn't the Arabs be descendants of Abraham and his Egyptian mistress?

Either way they probably never occupied Palestine until the Middle Ages.

Double Post. See above

You had me until the last sentence. I don't think you meant "Middle Ages," as there is extra-Biblical evidence of the Israelites being present in Canaan in the 9th century BC (via the Mesha Stele), and this record indicates an existing civilization.

Well they definitely had neighbors in the Levant. It's not like they were the only ones there. They also shared the area with the Philistines for quite a while. My point was that A: there's no way of knowing who those people were and no reason to assume they were Proto-Arabs (in the case of the Philistines, they were probably of Greek/Minoan descent), and B: Sularius' original post made it seem as though the Jews were only there for a brief period of time, which isn't the case.

And the Muslim invasion didn't occur until the Middle Ages, which is what I meant to say

Oh the Muslims....... n/m

Good point I guess I meant to say Arabs



That wasn't my intention, so thanks for the clarification





I think I have to vote republican now

The whole thing's moot to me anyway since the dispute over this land is totally one-sided. Israel owns it now, suck it up.

Then no real point talking about "two-nation solutions" with Palestine being one. Just corral the Palestinians onto reservations, give 'em gaming casinos, an' ignore everything else. Or just wipe them out or forcibly deport them ALL, since it's okay for that stuff to be done as long as it's to other people, or not to the Jews. Seriously. It'll force the ones who don't like it to move on quicker that way. Especially since peace trumps justice here.

I'm not insensitive to their plight, I just think that the situation is HIGHLY unlikely to change and I also think that they're being a bit pig-headed about it. Since there's nothing preventing the Palestinians from just, living in Israel.

Well large part seems to be the Hatfield-and-McCoy-ness of it all. Too much violence has been traded for people to wanna live in their enemy's stolen land now. I just think the rest of the world would benefit a lot from extricating themselves from their affairs, at least back to a level of, "Yeah, you're our allies but that's ALL you are. If you stir up your own shot, that should be your own problem." And not using "allies" as a cover for "We prefer Jews over Muslims but we're gonna make up some PC crap rather than admitting it."

I don't know that it has to be a prejudice issue... I think it's more an issue of: look, the country is *called* "Israel," the Israelis own it, the Palestinians don't. The world diplomatically recognizes Israel (well, most of the world...). Although it should be mentioned that the US' stance toward Israel is far more accomodating than that of most European nations. Which isn't a surprise, given the relatively large Jewish population in this country.

Well I've no problem with any of that. Just seems like the country sends a bit too much more money to Israel than is explained by "the large Jewish community" here. If that's not true, then I'm not bothered by any of it (practically-speaking, anyways). War be unto those who seek it.

I don't think it's the only reason... Israel is also a thriving democracy, and an ally of ours in a region where most of our alliances are necessity-driven and tenuous.

It's a complex issue, no doubt. And it isn't helped by the fact that Israel is surrounded by people who would love it to go away forever.

But I don't see a single non-Israeli government in the region that provides any kind of positive model of what a modern nation should look like. They're all monarchies or authoritarian regimes. So if Israel *were* to cease to be, it would be most likely replaced by that kind of governmental system.

That's probably a not-oft-spoken issue that's also near the heart of all this. I'm not personally bothered by the replacement of Israel with such a governmental system like its neighbors. And many probably would be.

But from a perspective of political alliances and tactical diplomacy, I don't think the only democracy-ish government in the region being Israel actually helps our purposes as much as it probably hurts them. Firstly, it creates a rallying point on which Arab nations focus their anger. Secondly, we're not incapable of establishing productive diplomatic ties with Islamic nations (which is necessary for anything meaningful since that religion isn't about to go away). And third, our demonstrated ability to have good relations with a muslim nation, in the absence of such a focal point like Israel, would help deter them from thinking democracy = omg jewish invzn or taking land from people who lived there.

if their only beef was us being a democratic republic that might fly. but it has as much to do with freedom of religion as it does with freedom of expression and equal rights for women.

plz spare me the lectures on stereotyping, I have inlaws who are muslim arabs, I know what I'm talking about.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Well just because I'm chinese doesn't mean that a statement I make isn't stereotyping against chinese (not that I thought you were stereotyping anyone to begin with, either before or now -- yours is a fairly accurate assessment of politics in the Arabic world, to my knowledge).

I do think those issues (while true) are fairly ancillary to the point. We don't need to have governments in the region that are like ours in order to have good diplomatic relations with those nations. In fact, it helps in asserting and demanding respect for our politics when we offer the same.

it would be great if one of these thread one day could end with everyone going


"hey, good point"



btw glue, good point.

Same!

It'd probably be grander if the middle east could do the same. Ahh, what a world that could be.....
Ah well.. *returns to the decadence of plastic toys*

INFIDEL!

Well I do know that if I were a Palestinian I think I'd just find a nice new place to live... Coastal Lebanon looks very nice.

Seriously, when i was a kid we lived in West Virginia, and it sucked so we moved now I live In North Carolina and yays we prosper and stuff.

Oh, but "some people may not have enough money" and "that's where their roots are" and "poverty" an' stuf...

*wishes he could afford a vacation villa somewhere on the Mediterranean coast*

*also wishes he could find some Carolina-style BBQ somewhere in Louisiana*

I don't get why you'd even have to move. In case nobody noticed, Israel is doing pretty well for itself. Suck it up and become an Israeli citizen.

Amen

I just make my own vinegar sauce and pretend...

*wishes he could find Texas barbecue in Georgia*

That's what I usually do, but sometimes you just want some pulled pork without having to babysit one on the smoker for 14 hours.

(yeah, yeah, "pull your own pork" and other jokes. Ha, ha.)

the babysitter smoked your pork for 14 hours????

I'll be honest. I did not see that one coming.

Can Palestinians participate in Israeli politics? I mean, if they wanted to (which they don't, apparently). Couldn't they hold elected office and help govern the country and stuff?

Why not?

What if we just sent them all barbeque? If only they liked pork...

Wait! That can be their common ground!

Yes. There's no law in Israel that says only Jews can vote. While it's true Jews get an easier path to Israeli citizenship, there's nothing stopping native Arabs (Palestinians) from gaining Israeli citizenship. In fact many Palestinians do hold Israeli citizenship and vote in national elections.

The Balad Party, the Arab Democratic Party, and the Israeli Islamic Movement, all parties aimed at advancing Arab priorities within Israel, hold seats in the Israeli Knesset (Parliament).

I'm just going to say, again, that I think a two-state solution is the best answer. The Israelis and Palestinians both claim the land. They're both there and not going to move. So let them split it. Egypt gets Gaza back, the West Bank becomes the State of Palestine, and Jerusalem's split. Is it perfect? No. Not by a long shot. But given the current situation "perfect" is an impossibility.

FTR, to answer one of Sularias' questions, a two-state solution has been proposed twice. Once in 1948 and once in 1997 (IIRC). Both times the Jews/Israelis agreed (they came up with the later proposal) and both times the Arabs/Palestinians turned it down.

EDIT-Sorry, the second proposal was given in 2000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit