Okay, so my mate Mark from work (DIEHARD TF fan) and I were shooting the Blot about the TF sequel today and he mentioned how he'd love to see Grimlock in the sequel.

Now, I NEVER wanted the Dinobots to be in the film before, but after brainstorming with Mark for a while I've started to warm to the idea. Now before I go on, I must say that the ideas discussed may (I can't remember exactly) or may not have been presented on DM.Net before. I seem to remember the general concepts being thrown around before, so if this following brain farts sound familiar to you then feel free to claim credit for them. These are just brain farts after all.

Anyway, here's what we came up with (rough notes):

Grimlock is a loner. He's very quiet and brooding. Very much like Wolverine. Not much is revealed about him, but the other Autobots seem to recall stories being told about him back on Cybertron. They don't entirely trust him and he doesn't go out of his way to show his loyalty to the cause. Apparently he's a bit of a legend back home and was known for being a bit of a beserker (see Slaine), but none of the surviving Autobots have ever witnessed him in battle. They've heard outrageous (possibly exaggerated) tales of his exploits that make him out to be some kind of crazy lunatic killing machine (again, like Wolverine) and possibly a war-criminal.
He rarely speaks and when he does he utters very few words (kinda reminiscent of G1 Grim, but without the dumb baby-talk).
When he first arrives on the scene he takes the form of a large Earth vehicle, maybe a construction vehicle of some sort (Caterpillar Bulldozer?).

His big moment comes in the film during a battle with a Decepticon that takes them into a city center, where they smash into a natural history museum. His opponent is large, and very fast, and definitely has the edge in the fight. Grimlock appears to be losing the fight but is determined to keep going. But the big Decep rains blow after blow down on Grim and he's taking serious damage.


Enter the rest of the Autobots. They arrive on the scene just in time to witness the following:


The evil Decepticon is about to deliver the fatal blow when Grimlock spots the Skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus Rex looming over them both. A thought crosses his mind, and it's the kind of thought that only HE is crazy enough to have and in microseconds he's already scanned the ancient skeleton. The missing blanks (biological/paleontological data and current theories) are filled in with another microsecond scan of Earth's internet (shown in a quick zoom montage of Grim's CPU in action) and suddenly he starts to change. The parts that make up his body start to shift and reconfigure. Damaged panels fold and mend themselves. A glowing blue light shines from within him - HE'S REFORMATTING MID-BATTLE!!

The other Autobots are amazed! They've never seen anything like this!

The camera cuts back, and where Grimlock was laying broken there now stands...a lean, mean, savage-looking ROBOT T-REX!!

(Audience cheers!)

What follows is a furious and savage scene of horrific destruction as a COMPLETELY FERAL Grimlock tears his opponent apart with razor sharp teeth! Grimlock goes beserk and can only bellow and roar as he tears the Decepticon limb from limb!

The rest of the Autobots watch in stunned silence - The Cybertronian legends they heard were true!

Grimlock eventually calms down and goes on to help the Autobots in the final battle, having proven himself as a warrior and a loyal Autobot. The other 'bots still fear him, but are glad to have him by their sides.
Grimlock reverts back to his construction vehicle alt-mode...but with the T-Rex mode fully scanned and locked in memory, it's only a matter of time before it rears it's terrifying head once more!

No.

Especially not because of the Mary-Sue fanfic style you use to describe him.

It's closer to "ZOMG MAKE MY FAVORITE CHARACTER EVEN MORE BADASS" than Mary-Sue.

Dynamo, you're also forgetting how in the hell they're gonna pull off an organic alt mode in the movie. I'm sure if they wanted to they could do it right now... But it'd take around 5-8 days to render a single frame. Some of the more complex scenes with Optimus took a full two days, after all.

Care to elaborate?

Please bear in mind that I do not consider myself a writer, and don't normally take the time to put stories/concepts down in written form.

The initial post was from the point of view of someone who a) Has never seriously considered the idea of putting the Dinobots in a live action film and b) Isn't really a fan of the Grimlock character.

It is more an attempt to open my own eyes and try to see things from a Grimlock fan's point of view.

Perhaps I should've mentioned that Grimlock's T-Rex mode would be robotic, not organic. His on-the-fly reformat is a last resort, and aesthetics couldn't be further from his mind.

With the Dinosaur alt-mode being robotic, and made up entirely of existing parts (give or take a few) the render time would not be greatly different to that of the robot mode.
Also, I think that ILM/Digital Domain's render pipeline will have been streamlined considerably by the time the sequel is ready to start production.

True, but most likely those gains will be mostly lost through increase of detail on all of the models.

The reason I gave such a long time is I figured the only way to have a semi-believable organic T-Rex would be to spend that frigging long on the GC model.

Increased detail doesn't necessarily mean a more complex model/greater rendering time. A high level of detail can be achieved easily by using normal maps and clever shaders.

True, but according to part of an article I read in a magazine a few months ago(I will look it up after I post), those are already used. After a while, you just gotta make the model more complex.

It's all about finding a balance. And the techniques used vary from shot to shot. But the best models are the ones that make economical use of polygons without sacrificing the look of the model. CG artists are always looking for ways to make a model look more detailed...without having to build the detail into the model itself.

Smoke and mirrors as we say in the industry.

Your description of Grimlock's persona is also out of character for Grimlock and it seems like you've just mished together various aspects of different Dinobots into one character - which reeks of fanboy-fappage (hence Father Time's comment about it being a Mary-Sue).

Grimlock isn't a loner, that's Snarl. Grimlock also isn't a berserker, that's Slag. And he certainly isn't a war-criminal, that's Dinobot (as in the Beast Wars Transformer).

"By our powers combined, you are Captain Grimlock!"

Took me a while, but I found the damn magazine. it was 3D World's 94th issue. It's a UK magazine so the store I was in must have imported it...

This is a new Grimlock. This is Grimlock as I envision him.
My intention wasn't to combine the different qualities of the other Dinobots, but if that's what I did then...cool!

Surely that would make him perfectly suited to the role of leader of the Dinobots?

Not only that, but also:
- Grimlock is a legend
- Grimlock is bad-ass
- Grimlock is brooding
- Grimlock reformats mid-battle to the amazement of all other Autobots
- etc, etc

It's not 'catering to the fan', it's "Oh, look how fucking awesome and bad-ass what I wrote is!!!"

Is it so wrong to take pride in one's work?

I quite enjoyed writing that scene. I'm sorry it did nothing for you.

I just checked your profile and noticed that you are a writer yourself. That explains your...uh...enthusiastic critique.
Have you written any Transformers material yourself. And if so, have you taken your writing cues from the comics or the TV show? Or both?

You should let the work speak for itself.

Do you really think it would work, though? Imagine every character doing something on the screen, and all of the other characters dropping everything to "watch in amazement". It would be completely ridiculous. You would have every other scene characters go "ooohhh..". That's not good writing.

The way you wrote that piece was you giving your character, the way you envision him, the spotlight. You are making him better than all the others. Hence a Mary-Sue. What you think is 'awesome', that is Grimlock. He's intelligent, strong, 'cool', bad-ass, and-so-on, and all his so-called 'negative' sides are only making him all the more 'awesome'.

I have, indeed, written Transformers material myself. However, when you interpret 'writing cues' as 'style of writing', I would say Beast Wars, Stargate and such are bigger influences than anything G1. Plot-wise and content-wise, however, it would be an amalgam between elements from the comics and the cartoon, but set within a new universe.

I understand.

But the point of the piece (if you can call it that) is not to present a fully fleshed-out movie scene. Nor is it an attempt to give professional writers a run for their money. It was written to demonstrate a pseudo-logical explanation for Grimlock's Dinosaur alt-mode. I wrote it the way I would describe it to a fellow Transformer fan in person - with enthusiasm and a blatant disregard for proper punctuation and grammar!
What the other characters are doing in the background is not the concern at this point - that's for the professional script writer to worry about presumably.

But as for whether or not I think it would work - "it" being a desperate and last minute mid-battle reformat in an attempt to preserve one's life - then, yes, I think it might.

Oh, I have no issue with that. But if you interpret "it" as "a character better than anyone else", which is the way you are describing Grimlock here, then I would say, as I did, "no". It would not work. Not in a group-based social dynamic. If you would have a story where you have only one main character, who provides for all the action, like in, for example, Die Hard, or Evil Dead, then, yes, it would. However, in Transformers, you have multiple characters, all equals, where even Optimus Prime is but part of a larger group. Inserting a 'perfect' character like your Grimlock in such a story format would then simply not work.

fwapfwapfwap

*leaves*

+1. Precisely. As Father Time said, everything about Dynamo's Grimlock just cries Mary Sue.

I must admit, I'm not familiar with the term 'Mary Sue'. But, I think I get the point now.

Now, 'Mary Sue'/poor writing aside...does anyone have a problem with the idea of Grimlock reformatting on the fly and/or reformatting from a scan of a T-Rex skeleton (the original point of the post)?

Well, I'm curious as to why an intact Dinosaur skeleton is just sitting around in the middle of the battle...where are they?

And why has the skeleton remained intact despite giant robots engaging in a very destructive battle around it?

If it's not intact, how much is left? And are those pieces arranged in a way that would be helpful to Grimlock in trying to mimic this animal?

For that matter, how does Grimlock, an alien robot, recognize the fossilized bones of an extinct carbon based life form as something "scannable" instead of just some fancily arranged rocks?

Whether he recognizes them as something more than rocks or not, wouldn't it make more sense for his character to just scan another nearby vehicle?

If no vehicles are nearby, and he's got this mind blowing reformatting ability that he needs to use, wouldn't it make more sense to scan one of the other Transformers? I mean, at least they're still technology, right?



In all fairness to you, I find that all these questions raise their ugly heads in any story that involves the Dinobots scanning their alt. modes, not just yours. And no one seems to have answers for them.

Save Grimlock for Transformers Animated .. he works better with Saturday Morning cartoons. Movies are somethin totally different.

In all honesty, I'd rather there be no animals in Transformers II .. not to say I have a detest for beastformers or anything.. I just can't picture a robot converting into any animal for any reason in the story they got set as of now.. espically when you got jets, cars and tanks to pick from.. why a big slow dinosaur? It's totally impractical anyway you look at it.

1. They are in a natural history museum.

2. They land at the foot of the skeleton during the battle. It is perhaps mounted on a plinth and held in place (as most fossilized skeletons are) with metal rods and supports.

3. The entire skeleton is intact (or as intact as it can be - I don't know if an absolutely complete skeleton has ever been found).

4. This one will take a stretch of imagination for sure. Lets just assume that his scan of the internet is very thorough. It could be the case that Grimlock has been on Earth longer than the other Autobots, and has amassed more information about Earth's history. *shrugs* Maybe someone has a better idea?

5. We're in a natural history museum first of all. Secondly, would having Grimlock scan a car be as exciting or cool as him scanning a T-Rex? The ONLY reason he'd scan a T-Rex is to give the audience, and the fans a "wow ain't that cool Grimlock's a T-Rex moment". I doubt him scanning a car would have the same effect.

6. See answer 5.

7. You are correct. Which is why I'm attempting to find answers to those questions. I'm afraid however you attempt to do it, you're going to have to expect a large stretch of the imagination from the audience. That said, it is transforming robots we're talking about here...

If you don't know what something means, feel free to look it up. Seriously dude, Google is your friend.

What is a Mary Sue
How to avoid Mary Sues

Sorry, IMO that's just not a good enough reason to go through all the contrivance required to get to that moment.

Many movies have that kind of plot device...

Doesn't mean it's a good plot device, but it's certainly there...

Well, why would you want to make a bad movie just because somebody else made one too?

Many bad movies have made money at the box office.

Though I doubt Transformers 2 will use such a plot device on anybody other than maybe Megatron.

Indisputable, but not really the point, I think, in a thread about how a fan would want to see things done in the sequel. Don't we all want it to be a blockbuster hit and a great movie?

Well, all of us who are looking forward to a sequel, at any rate.

Geez people, why don't you just crap all over him...

I think it's a cool idea, certainly the best rationalization for a movie Grimlock with a G1 alt mode that I've read.

I was trying to be nice... >.>

I imagine if a T-Rex grimlock happens it'll be because he crashes at a museum or something.

Then we'd have a totally badass skeletal Grimlock.

Oh and BTW Goki, you can't accuse him of writing a Mary Sue on one hand, and berate him about who Grimlock "is" on the other.

I agree with this, and I'm sorry if I didn't come off as more constructive.

But that just shows how overwhelming the problems with an alien robot choosing to look like a dinosaur are. Even the best rationalization requires a lot of contrivance. I'd prefer a reinvention of Grimlock that allows the story to shape what he turns into, instead of shaping the story to shoehorn in a dinosaur mode.

Well you know it isn't an either-or situation. Writers are tasked with rationalizing story mandates all the time. If the decision is made to put a dinosaur Grimlock in a sequel, then the writers have to make it work within the context of the story. What I liked about this idea is how it got inside the character's head.

Although I do wonder how much these movies will be getting inside any TF's head.

The idea of a Michael Bay version of Beast Machines just popped into my head... and scared me.

That's absolutely true. I'm just not convinced that decision will be made.

I also still think that the best solution is to give Grimlock's natural robot mode state a less humanoid/more monstrous shape that calls to mind a dinosaur - a sort of dragony style thing. Many of the 'Cons in this movie had more animalistic qualities to their robot modes, and so it wouldn't be completely out of place in the movieverse for him to appear this way - it could even tie in to backstory with the 'Cons.

This way he can still make a rational choice regarding what alt. mode to take (probably some military vehicle), his alt. mode would offer him disguise, and it would be natural for Sam to refer to him as a "Dinobot".

Plus it would make for a really awesome action figure.

Everyone wins.

works for me

Geez. It's like it's become 'Protectobots R Us' around here. A guy can't even share something with his "fellow" fans about an idea he and a buddy were brainstorming about without everyone taking it as a personal attack on the Transformers franchise? I can't decide which is more ridiculous, that or the fact that people are more worried about plotholes in someone's personal idea more than they are the actual screenplay. It's probably time to lighten up.

...Or, maybe, it was just a bad idea that people admittedly overreacted to a bit.

Hey, the guy asked for opinions on his idea. You don't get better at anything by being treated with kid gloves. Although the criticism has to be something with more substance than "U R TEh Suxx", but I think even the harshest posts in this thread contain at least some element of real criticism.

I certainly encourage Dynamo to continue to refine the idea based on anything in this thread he finds to be valid/helpful and to ignore the rest because, as we all know, often times people on the internet (myself included) don't know what they're talking about. I would certainly be interested in seeing further "drafts" of the concept if he were inclined to share them.

Who cares about improvement? He's not writing the actual script or anything. He was just talking over an idea with a buddy and decided to share. It just seems that the pile on effect is pretty potent around here.

Well, gee, I never thought of it like that.

I think most people would want their work to be the best it can be, even if it is just fan-fiction for fun's sake. He's creative enough to come with the idea, and I think he's creative enough to refine it if he finds doing so to be enjoyable.

Let's just stick to the topic now, okay.

I think you're in the wrong forum. There is still a fan-fic forum, right?

i like the idea of his bot-mode geing dinosaur like and his alt-mode military vehicle but your characterization seems complicated considering he amount of time spent in the first movie concerning the robots character...

look at it from a casual fans perspective, they know optimus is leader, and ironhide like to shoot stuff, but they didn't get the feeling that starscream is a traitor or anything... the robots characterization was very lacking and i don't know how bay would add one like that and make it unique? what did we really find out about any of their pasts? or reputations

Seriously, I would be a bit surprised if we ever see a movie Grimlock.

I agree. If you strip away everything you know about Transformers and then watch the movie, what do you really know about these characters at the end of the movie? Who knows where they may be planning to go with a sequel, but to my mind this franchise wasn't really set up to be the kind of thing that allows the robots to be real characters. Their main function in the first movie seemed to be to get the audience to say "whoa cool!" Most of their dialogue was cartoon-level stuff.