I've been frequenting message boards of other toylines recently and it seems to me that Transformers fans are widely despised among other toy collectors. And to be quite honest, after lurking around various He-Man, GI Joe, wrestling and movie figure boards, and I can't say this reputation isn't well deserved. I never noticed how negative so many Transformers fans are. Other fans seem to genuinely enjoy their hobbies, but for the most part, Transfans just Starscream and complain about how stupid Hasbro is, and just don't seem to enjoy the hobby, which makes no damn sense to me. Grown men nitpicking about the flaws of children's toys...could it get any sadder than that? Anyways, just an observation from someone who took a break from the TF community only to come back and realize how freakin' negative it was in the first place compared to other fandoms. I wish just trying to be positive was an option, but sadly, I think the best thing to do is just keep ignoring the TF community altogether and just quietly enjoy the line in peace.

Toy collectors/long time fans Starscream. Starscreaming does not discriminate among toy lines. JMO

No surprises here.

I will agree with you though not all Transformers fans are one in the same.

A lot of it I think developed over the past two years and little Hollywood movie being made based on children's cartoon of the 80s.

Not that the 80s stuff was all that special mind you.

Anyways. Welcome and enjoy the board.

And that's why I love Transformers fans so much. No one is jaded like a transformers fan is jaded. BTW, there is no way we Starscream less than the hardcore SW fans when the prequels were coming out. I think we probably Starscream more than the Joe fans with GI JOE EXTREME and Sigma Six.

If I remember correctly, He-man and GI Joe have each had one re-imagining. And there's nothing to really Powerglide up with wrestling figures.

But Transformers has been constantly reworked since it's original inception in the early 80's... and it's not always in what the fans perceive to be a positive direction.

There have been (by my quick count) 8 animated continuities, 6 comic book ones, a few crappy video games, a MAJOR motion picture, and 15+ toy lines, which were ALL using G1 as it's source material.

Now take into consideration that G1 has almost 25 years of fandom behind it.

This is going to lead people to be vocal when they alter the fundamentals of the TF universe every two years, often times arbitrarily...

...say like changing Starscream into a good guy, making UM some weird loner, changing into them animals instead of machinery, and the list goes on and on...

The reason you get more Starscreaming, is that the fans have more to be vocal about.

The rest of those fandoms are running on fumes.

Ahhh.... but do other fandoms have INH - type forums?

Maybe, but I bet they don't have as much fun as we.

I think it's all relative to the constant reimagining that TF goes through. But given that, I think it's also strange that TF fans constantly Starscream about that. I mean, you know the reimagining is coming every year. It also boggles my mind when people say Hasbro doesn't do anything for the fans. In the past 5-6 years they've done plenty between reissues, Alts, MP's, Titaniums, Classics and all of the G1 homages they throw into any given line. We're only 13% of thier market and they treat us like gold with all of these specialty/collector oriented lines they give us not to mention things they do at the cons; appearences, specialty molds and exclusives. We're spoiled and the people who Starscream really don't have a leg to stand on. But I also think there's the same percentage of bitchy fans in any given fandom it's just that you see them raise their ugly heads in TF so much more because of the afformentioned constant reimaginings.

Are you kidding me? Treat the collectors like gold?

The collectors have the most reason to Starscream because the company is marketing products toward them, the most discerning crowd, and then half-assing it...

Alternators...
- Dead End was obviously Sunstreaker, and was randomly changed to a Con he barely resembles
- Swindle is made out of what was supposed to be Trailbreaker
- Overdrive becomes what was supposed to be Windcharger, then the other S2000 mold uses the actual windcharger head, but instead becomes a new character, Decepticharge (wtf?)
- Battle Ravage... do I need to explain how retarded this one is?
- Sideswipe mold was originally intended for Tracks
- Alt Optimus, possibly the most important release, has arguably the most laughable mold

Exclusives...
- Almost always underproduced, overpriced, and hard to find, Alt Hotrod, Nemi Prime, the list goes on...

MPs - Most are fragile, almost all have had QC issues, crazy expensive

Reissues - obvioulsy weren't produced in small runs, and yet still were 2-4 times the price of current TF toys of the same size.

The reality is, that there are plenty of things to Starscream about when it comes to TFs. They have the same people working on the main toylines working on the collectors lines most of the time, and those are markets that need to be treated entirely differently.

They are just jealous becase Tranformers Fans are able to easily break into official work and have. There's been a bunch of us that have gotten into the creative end of the business, something that other series' fans haven't been able to do. Ben Yee, Don and other fan artists became artist for Dreamwave and IDW. Guido Guidi and Trent Troop. I myself have even been involved as I got to sit on the Transformers panel at Anime North 2001. What other fanbase gets those kind of opportunities?

Entitlement

Go talk to a Centurions fan about how bad you have it with the Transformers.

the complaints made by tf fans are mostly because the useless flesh creatures that inhabit this planet don't like changes... humans are pathetic (that includes me)

I don't complain really...

Well, about TFs anyway

I think we are entitled to heap a fair amount of criticism upon Transformers. When Hasbro can't make even the most simple head-sculpt change for Classics Cliffjumper, we should complain about it. The same goes for Classics Ultra Magnus.

I think Hellscream333 is right. It might seem that we complain a lot only because there has been so much that one might not like, or at least think could be better.

Me, too.

I Starscream when the dinobots aren't made how they should. Classics Grimlock is everything BUT classic, and it looks nothing like it's G1 counterpart, and Animated Grimlock has a circumcised tail.

THAT is worth Starscreaming for.


And the rocky mace thing for the Triceratops guy is really not necessary, not to mention stupid and stereotypical as hell.
If they don't know how to make TF's into dinosaurs well, then they should just give up and turn Grimlock into a bulldozer.

Classics Grimlock is a great update that completely calls to mind his G1 form.


Stereotypical? What, exactly, are the robotic triceratops character stereotypes?

Besides, based on the translucent plastic, I was under the impression that the club was actually fire, not rock, and that it will probably peg into the dinosaur mode's mouth to evoke G1 Slag's flamethrowing. But there's no need to wait and see, is there? Assume the worst case scenerio (which, as you see it, are robot dinosaur stereotypes) and begin the hating.

We are the worst fandom in the world.

Classics Grimlock was good, his robot mode's chest even recalled the human shell from the Pretenders toy. I think he and Mirage are some of the best of the Classics toys. In fact, people complained about Hasbro not making all of the Dinobots in the Classics line.

You obviously haven't checked out the Marvel & the Street Fighter forums I've had the displeasure of reading...

well i agree with what others have pointed out. TF's as a brand have changed a huge amount over the years SW, hot wheels, He-man, G.i.Joe etc have never really changed and have kept to the same idea a good example that i can think of is darth vader toys they all look the same to me bar a few mould changes and the odd super possible figure the only one that really sticks out to me is the SWTF guys

What I don't get is the hate towards the updated Grimlocks in Classics/animated.

If you go by G1 Energon Grimlock is probably the most accurate. Meaning it represents the Barny the purple dinosaur stereotype best.

Oh let me say that again. G1 Grimlock was basically a transforming Barny the purple dinosaur minus the purple.

Classics Grimlock carries a lot of the same g1 influence but at least manages to rectify the stereotype making him a little more badass than he was.

Animated Grimlock however is a departure all in itself. No long does he look like a stupid upright walking dinosaur but an actual threat. A cross between JPs Trex and movie Godzilla. A glorious update if there ever was one. Anybody dense enough to photoshop this Grimlock in purple really should look at the G1 incarnation again.

Haven't seen a lot of Slag. Looks cool from what I've seen and the translucent club looks killer.

Personally I don't see anything to really Starscream about. We're getting dinobots with respectable dino modes at long last.

For anyone who thinks the dinobots would have been better as construction vehicles we already had that line. It was called Rid.

Yep. Now, some G.I. Joe fans don't like the new 25th anniversary figures, but it's not many. Even Sigma 6 got a fair shake, since, while the cartoon stunk, most fans agreed that the figures were at least pretty good but not something they would collect.

I disagree. G.I. Joe fans have to wade through 12", 3 3/4", 12" based on the 3 3/4" characters, G.I. Joe Extreme, Sgt. What's-his-nuts, and Sigma Six...not to mention the same comic vs. tv show vs. tech spec card canon issues as us. And Star Wars fans have had to watch as their hero has actively rewritten the canon so that it doesn't make sense and altered the original source material.

We haven't had it any rougher than them. Not by a long shot.

And, in regard to fans not having a leg to stand on when they complain, that pretty much covers fans of every type. I mean, no matter what a sports fan thinks that their team should do, plays, trades, etc, it doesn't mean it's going to actually happen.

My impression is that Joe fans are even more nitpicky than TF fans.

I was reading some reviews on the 25ths and being amazed at the reports of anyone having less than amazed opinions on the sculpts at all, much less Starscreaming that they should have looked more like the vintage figures with the bloated heads. Apparently, a lot of vintage figure lovers got sore that Hasbro added little features/elements to some characters like Buzzer, Serpentor, or Zartan that actually made them look better. Even the reviewer, who loved almost every figure himself, seemed to have a lot of criticisms or "what they should've done"s.

Powerglide are you guys kidding me?

damn i'm glad i'm not a hardcore joe collector then -_- i love those lil 25th guys, they've become what i go to the store for now that tfs have died down a bit.

as for transformers fans, people just Starscream. the thing that makes it horrible is that we have these little Powerglideing squables with each other. for a LONG time you couldn't have a movie thread without it degrading into a steaming pile of Blot stirring in just a few posts. this seems to happen ALOT. now, i have no experience with other toy collectors because well all i collect is tfs (and now 25th joes -_-), but that to me is what makes me sad about the fandom.

Look out! A PLANT FROM HASBRO!!!



Get Him!!!

POST PREWARNING: I'm not flaming or being a dick. I just can't help but be sarcastic. Please take it with a grain of salt and . It's my feeble attempt at injecting fun and interest not flame and trolling.





-And we got our poor little Sunstreaker after all didn't we...

-You guys can say that about Swindle up and down but I'm sorry, Swindle was never a Jeep and it's just a repaint. We got hound and he rocks!

-Who the hell is Overdrive and when did we ever get one in Alternators? His name IS Windcharger...Even says it on the box
http://cyberstore.decepticon-matrix.com/al...dchargermib.jpg Binaltech is not the same as Alternators.

- The other S200 (Decepticharge) most certainly does not use windchargers head.
Decepticharge - http://seibertron.com/images/toys/files/29...ticharge079.jpg
G1 Windcharger and his scary box/bucket helmut - http://www.superkahramanlar.com/transforme...ger2%5B1%5D.gif
These two look nothing alike IMO. And I'm sorry but I'd rather have the head they gave windcharger on the alt than have the face-in-a-box G1 gave us. God forgive Has/tak for trying to improve on an old crappy idea.

And I think it's funny that you're carrying on about getting ONE brand new character in a line of old favorites and the usual repaints. Some say he should have been Dragstrip but in the end....it's just a name. I call him Megatron....

Battle Ravage: I think you're forgetting that these were never even intended for the US market. To answer this I will refer you to the Binaltech story and just simply say......Battle Ravage is a repaint. Dude, this mold was put out three times in the US and when G1 homaging fans reared their ugly head because {OH NOESSS} Tracks wasn't blue Hasbro bent over backwards to change his color and appease these nonsensical complaints. (And personally I'm still fairly sore about that as Tracks looked better in yellow and so does the C6 Corvette) And finally.......we got our Ravage too didn't we. Yup, four legs and all.

Sideswipe: So what? I'm sorry but the Vette we got for tracks works and fits him way better and the same can be said for the Viper/Sideswipe. this is seriously nitpicking.

Prime: Why would this be the most important? Nearly everyone up until his release wasn't even expecting a Prime and considered 20th Op to be the leader of this line. And this is your personal opinion clashing with mine because I happen to like the mold. He's highly posable, updates the look of the G1 character and is a faithful recreation to the Dodge Pickup that he is. Remind me why we even needed a Prime for this line?



Well....yeah! That's kind of the idea. Limited runs = highly collectable figure. Everyone wants at least one toy in their collection they can hold as a prize over others. Nearly every one you named could've been gotten either online, at a convention or both. If you weren't on at the right time or didn't go to the Con that's your fault not Hasbros.

MP's: most are fragile? Most would require more than one and so far there have only been two released in the US; Prime and Starscream. Prime is by no means fragile. That thing is the tank of toys. Starscream could be considered fragile but seriously think about this: the more moving parts you put into something, the more complicated you make something the more room there is for error. And I will also say this: I have this mold (MPSS) three times and I wouldn't call him fragile. I'd call him easy to break if you don't follow the instructions. And regarding the QC issue: every toy line on the planet suffers from QC. Mistakes happen. If the toy is broke--return/exchange it. The toy gets returned to Hasbro and destroyed while you either get a new toy or your money back. And for the record: out of over 700 transformers toy purchases I have had ONE QC issue. That's a pretty good track record in my book and also inculdes two Mp primes and the three afformentioned seekers all of which are played with regularly.



And you're blaming Hasbro for this? The reissues were sold exclusively at TRU and in case you haven't noticed TRU has a mad crazy markup on damn near anything and everything that is exclusive to their store and in some cases their markup makes no sense at all. I will reference DVD anniversary Prime at a TRU retail of 90$. Standard retail and any other store..........was at least 20$ cheaper. You want to blame someone blame TRU for this. They did the markup. Walmart, Target and all of the other normal chain stores weren't willing to carry these toys becasue they didn't think they could sell them. But again, Hasbro chose to appease the fans and reissued them as well as finding and striking a deal with a retailer to get them out on the market.



Sure, if you like to be nitpicky as all get out. Hasbro doesn't need to service us. Hasbro is a company and the only thing that really matters to any company is the bottom line and whether that's black or red. But they choose to take the extra step where nearly no other company does and go the extra mile for the 13% adult collector share of their market. Pennies in the bucket to them but they work to make us happy.

You can't treat the two markets differently. For them to set aside an entire development team just for 13% of their market makes no sense at all. The reason they have one team doing all things is because they're trying to market and make toys for kids first and collectors second. Alts, Titaniums....these lines died because kids took no interest in them. If I'm loosing money on a piece of stock you can be sure I'm going to dump it. You can also bet that in the same situation I'm going to take care of the stocks that are earning me money first. In order for Hasbro to keep the fans happy and keep the bottom line black they have to strive to achieve and market what they make to whom it's intended for.....Children.......welcome Classics and Classics 2.0/Universe2.0. A compromise of both worlds intended to sell to children and appease the adult collector.

I don't think you need a disclaimer when the following post is as truth filled as yours is.

Thanks!

Couldn't help it. I'm outside of INH and I don't want to piss anyone off. Stepping out of my sheel so to speak.

I joined a Joes board the other night and haven't really heard any of these super-hardcore fans, so not sure where they're all hiding.

While I think TF fans aren't really demanding enough, Joe fans are extraordinarily too demanding (although they also seem to get what they want more often -- at least right now). I mean I think I'm pretty picky, but 25th Joes have well surpassed all my possible expectations of what I ever thought Hasbro was even capable of giving to fans. The hip articulation seems to be the biggest common issue -- most of them can't sit upright due to the pelvis/crotch area being too wide -- and Hasbro has heard and tweaked the crotches on later wave figures to be thinner and allow better range for articulating the legs.

But aside from minor quibbles like the hip thing, how is it at all possible to complain about these little guys? The sculpts are so awesome. The spacing and proportions of all the joints make them look almost like actual humans as opposed to wax dummies (scroll to pic at bottom). And wherever I go, I see only empty pegs for these because some gheybos show up at the stores opening hour and buy every single figure they have no matter how many there are. Even with TFs, I've seen at least some of them.


That example just made me think that sports fans now have fantasy <whatever sport> games. Now our hobbies obviously only have fan art, customs, and fan fics, but I have to wonder what it'd be like to have some sort of organized fantasy toy/char design. That'll never happen obviously, at least anywhere as easily as with fantasy sports..

Transformers toylines, much like the toys themselves, have changed drastically over the last twenty years. Other toy brands have not. That's the main difference. Go and make all the G. I. Joes gorilla soldiers instead of humans and see how much that fandom complains. As a whole, the Transfans have put up with a lot more, and only a few fans truly "hate" what has changed in the TF brand.

I totally exemplify the point we're trying to demonstrate XD, which is good for the thread.

And the stereotype I meant was the stereotype surrounding dinosaurs and anything prehistoric. How can a Triceratops who turns into a robot hold a mace like a caveman? How exactly is a metallic, transformable, robot dinosaur, similar to a prehistoric human? This was an 70's and 80's thing and I'd rather not bring it into the present. This should be changed.

Too bad they're also voicing them like freaking cavemen. They should make them all complex like Terrosaur and Dinobot.

They should leave that stuff in the past.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to go around sending the makers death threats, or even boycotting the toys. I'm still a TF fan no matter what, but I feel there is the possibility of there existing a perfect Transformer, and these dinobots are soooo far from it... But of course, it's a matter of opinion.

And the dino modes are sure as hell not respectable. Except Slag's. Maybe.
But then again...it's really hard to make a dino into a robot.

They did do that, but fortunately that toy line never made it out of the prototype phase.

I don't think we have anything quite that drastic for comparison. The Transformers have always been robots from Cybertron.

I don't think that them turning into animals was any worse than this or the movie universe is any worse than this. And Animated is certainly not any worse than this.

Our trials and tribulations as a fandom aren't unique among the fandoms.

I think most of the complaining comes from a small fraction, and a lot of negative comes from others in reaction to that.

"Go talk to a Centurions fan..."

There are Centurions fans?!

The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

GI Joe Street Fighter

It's not my fault that half the GI Joe vehicles I bought as a kid turned out to be Street Fighter vehicles!

My g/f is a mod on an American Girl forum and she had some horror stories about the new doll release. Oprah was showing a sneak-peek of the new doll and people were debating what it would look like (hair color, eye color, skin color, face mold, etc) and it devolved to the point where people were calling each other stupid b---- or something because they thought it might have red hair or it might be black or God knows what... bans were dropping like crazy.

The point about sports fans is dead on. I don't talk as much with other toy fans but I do follow college sports and you can believe that TF fans have NOTHING on some of these crazy people. If you've got a good program and you don't win some kind of a championship every dang year you have people calling for the coach's head. Hell, I live in Kentucky and I know firsthand there were people putting For Sale signs on UK (Univ. of Kentucky) basketball coach Tubby Smith's lawn and taking out ads in the school paper calling for his dismissal despite winning at as good a rate as any coach that was ever here. I even had to switch to a different UK message board because the one I was on was warning or banning people for *supporting* Coach Smith during his last year and I didn't want to get in that crossfire.

Long story short, fans are crazy. It doesn't matter what they're fans of, crazies are everywhere.

Awesome, a tribute to the Intruders!

No, we are not the worst in the world. If I had to pick one type of fan to designate "the worst" I would say hardcore Star Wars fans. JMO.

As for Hasbro....
They're a toy company first and foremost, a toy company who produces products for kids. While many of their lines (SW, GI Joe, TF) do have an older collector following, with each the primary demographic is the 5-12 age group. Considering that, Hasbro has bent over backward for the adult collector community, which as was pointed out, makes up only 13% of their market. They have given us more attention then they probably should. There really isn't a case when it comes to hating on Hasbro.

I'm going to preface this by saying that of all the issues I brought up, I don't personally care about them all that much, and excessive Starscreaming, especially about the mainline toys intended for 5 year olds, annoys the Blot out of me too, however to claim that Hasbro hasn't made any mistakes worth mentioning in their collectors lines is ridiculous.

And before you claim that the Alt line was not intended for collectors, all you'd have to do is look at a couple of pictures to recognize that the entire line was an homage to G1. Not just in name alone like some mainline homages, but in complete design, coloring, headscuplts, etc... These TFs were inteneded to be recognized by and appeal to adults, while being accessible to kids. But it's accessibility to children does not in any way give reason to randomly abandon many of the homage/collectible aspects of the line.

So to actually respond....

1st off, :rolleyes

If you don't want to come off like a dick, then don't respond like one...

Most of the info I'm going to cite comes from here, and was discussed and generally agreed upon, ad nauseum, on most of the TF message boards...

http://web.archive.org/web/20051231133407/...ch_english.html

and here...

http://tfu.info

Read up on these, because you've been misinformed.

1. Alt Sunstreaker was indeed released...after between one and two years of fan Starscreaming. Good job, vocal fans.

2. Swindle was never a jeep?

What's this then...?


It's been shown over and again that the Alt Swindle Head was meant to be Trailbreaker, but became a Con instead because the line was lacking Cons to date. Your choosing to ignore that doesn't make it less true. Read the Binalternators page or do a search here if you truly are unable to see the correlations on the headsculpt designs.

3. Say hi to Overdrive... http://tfu.info/1985/Autobot/Overdrive/overdrive.htm

Look familiar? It's the toy that Alt "Windcharger" was based on.

4. Decpeticharge didn't have Windcharger's originally inteneded head?

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042907/...er_english.html

As shown in the Transformers Binaltech and Collection Complete Guide, the Decepticharge headsculpt was originally intended to be on the Alt Grimlock body, but lost the second mold to Alt Wheeljack. His consolation prize was becoming a Con with a different body.

Now I noticed you keep claiming that the Binaltechs and Alternators are not one and the same...

...But they were designed between Hasbro and Takara, and obviously the toy lines designing, naming, and releases closely intertwined, whether or not you choose to recognize it. True one was exclusive to the US and one to Japan, but the designs all came from the same place.

5. Sorry to confuse you with the "Battle Ravage" nomenclature. the identical and nearly identically named US figure was Ravage, and was, as most fans decided...stupid as hell. A bad repaint indeed, copying a mold that was later used again on another WTF?!?!-inducing homage.

6. MP's being fragile. Hmm...I'm glad yours have been fine.

However, there have been plenty of reported issues of the various MP Prime molds losing there legs and not being able to reattach them. I've seen it happen first hand 3 times, on display pieces (i.e., not played with.)

Plenty of people have also reported hinge stress and breaking with the MP SS... and it's only been out 3 weeks!

With pricey collectibles (call them toys all you want, but we all know who these are for) these issues are worth complaining about.

7. You're right about the exclusives. I should have thought that one out an extra second. I guess my frustration over not being able to afford them/find them got the better of me...

8. Reissues, I find it hard to believe that TRU marked up the toys 300%-500% in comparison to TF toys of the same size. Is it possible, yes, but I would guess that it was a combination of a TRU markup and Hasbro thinking it could get away with charging ridiculous prices becuase they were trying to sell to an age group that supposedly has "disposable income."

9. You're absolutely right about Hasbro not needing to service the collector. As a matter of fact, before the new movie came out, I don't think they had any idea how strong the adult draw to the franchise still is.

But although they don't need to service the collector, they try anyway. And some of those tries have been abysmal. And the entire Alt line ending as a WTF for most people is just one simple proof, and the Titaniums line being mostly floppy, poorly painted toys is another...

If they are going to keep trying to service us, they should allow third party collectible companies make licensed products, the same way they do with the minibusts and statues. That way, the guys who got hired to design and make toys for 5 year olds, won't also being making the collectibles for adults.

It's a simple win-win solution.

And again you're correct when you say that all Hasbro is concerned with is the bottom line. Which begs the question... if they're making collector-centric toys, must it not be serving their profits?

Where you argue that Alts and Titaniums died for lack of kids buying, I'd come right back and say that if they kept the quality of those lines up to the standards of the people they were really making those lines for, they'd still be around.

The markets MUST be kept separate to truly stay succesful on both fronts, ala Star Wars...

You give Hasbro a pardon, and I say they've made mistakes worth discussing.

While I agree that reissues are expensive, if the price point was such a big deal then shouldn't all of the be easy to find. TRU isn't the only place marking these up, they're expensive online as well. Also my MP Prime is sturdy as hell. As for Titaniums, Hasbro didn't make those toys, Galoob did. Now I don't know if Hasbro owns Galoob or not, but its obvious that the titaniums are not made by the same people that make the ongoing lines of TFs. I think TF fans do Starscream a lot, but all fans are crazy and they all Starscream at the smallest things. Hasbro has bent over backwards to appease adult collector and while they are perfect and I don't care what anyone says, but if the toys suck as bad as some people make it seem, they would still be on the shelves, we wouldn't have a movie, and there would not be as many forums, cartoons, or comic books. 25th Anniversary GI Joes kick serious ass. Classic Grimlock is badass, and we are getting an Ultra Magnus that combines with his trailer and an original Galvatron mold in the fall of 2008. BTW, How many times was the G1 movie remastered and re released. How many non Disney, non award winning animated films has that happened to? As for QC, Hasbro is one of the best toy companies in the world, certainly the best in the US. I don't want Mc Farlane making TFs, nor do I want Toybiz, Bandai, or Tonka making them. I've been collection TF heavily for the past 9 years, with over 400 purchases made and I've never had a TF break immediatly out of the package. I can't say that about Toybiz (I had to buy a couple Marvel Legends figures twice because they broke when I opened them!) Yeah I'm a fan and I Starscream, but TF fans have it pretty good I think.

Yes, those figs are faaar worse than anything TF's made. If anything, TF is innovative.

Ah. I'm glad this was posted.

I've said it before, I'll say it now, and I'll say it again in the future: The fans ruin it for everyone.

Whining, complaining, dissecting, egotistical, know it all jerks that do nothing to add to the community at large, but definitely detract from it.

A selfish, narrow minded, me, me, me attitude that envelopes all that they do. Heck, I'm even guilty of it.

It's disgusting and it needs to change, for all of us.

I dunno if Transformer fans are the worst in the world, buyt they are pretty bad.

I'm definitely not a fan. I collect the toys & that's it.

IMO the Alternators (& Titaniums if you like them) were a great treat for older collectors. I would happily pay a lot more for them with smaller numbers produced but slightly better quality control & more fan-orientated characters.