... I've seen the movie again and there's something I just do not get. Jazz is killed by being ripped in half, yet Frenzy gets his head chopped off and still keeps going! This is a MASSIVE hole for me in the story! If a TFs Spark can be permanently destroyed by massive trauma, then surely decapitation is gunna do it. So what happened to Frenzy's spark when he got the chop? Opinions would be greatly received as this kinda spoilt the movie for me a bit.

Frenzy was designed to collect data...so I imagine that's a design for a "backup." Plus he's very insect/crustacean-like in nature, so surviving on parts of the body makes sense, IMO in comparison.

Plus it was a kids movie, so I didn't really feel the need to ask questions

Well, we have no clue about the anatomy of the alien transformers. We do know that we can kill it by destroying its spark. Maybe frenzy's spark is located in his head..

thats what i figured

Prime's Spark was in his chest, as we could see in the movie. And a Spark is the core of each Transformer. Without it, a Transformer cannot survive.

Indeed, presumably, a Spark does not require to be located within the chest of a Transformer, and in the case of Frenzy, it could have been located within the head. The rest of the body of Frenzy was cut off from the Spark, and was therefore no longer functioning.

In the case of Jazz, his Spark was neither located within his chest or head, but in his abdomen. Ripping him apart, Megatron exposed Jazz' Spark, and because it was no longer encased, and therefore protected, it was allowed to expire.

Hmm, yeah that helps, Spark being in Frenzy's head etc. Guess I'm just upset Jazz died! Thanks chaps.

I've always felt, though, that a Spark would be intricately interwoven within a Transformers' body. There's no one place where it's kept, ie a Spark chamber within their head/chest where-ever. The Spark runs all the way through a Transformers body. So, massive trauma, like blowing a TF into tiny pieces would, indeed, kill the TF 'cos the Spark would be hopelessly lost. Maybe also massive energy blasts that virtually fry a TF's inners would destroy the Spark. However being ripped in half, albeit a server injury, would allow the TF to be repaired in time 'cos enough of the body remains for the Spark to survive in.

Not that your idea isn't nice and I do like it - and I'm not trying to be a prick, but officially TF's sparks are located in a certain area, so once that area is damaged heavily enough they die.

well, if it helps, in the original script Megatron was supposed to 'eat' Jazz's spark after he tore him in half... So that could be your explanation right there, consider it a 'deleted scene'

Eats his Spark? Ugh, sound gross. Maybe that's why they cut it? Thanks Thad and DM, doesn't ease his passing any though...

It sucks that he died 'cause he's one of my favorites. But I typically thought a spark would be located in a TF's chest (sorta like a human heart), though judging from the Energon figures it can be in your arm, up your ass, or up in your nose hairs. Seriously, though, I think they needed to have at least one hero death -- I mean everyone but Starscream got wasted on the evil side, and we know Megatron will probably return...so I think the writers had to kill off one good guy. But hey it isn't the original movie where Autobots get slaughtered wholesale, be thankful for that

According to this book, Transformers: The Movie Guide it seemed to indicate splitting apart was part of Frenzy's ability.

At least, that's what I think it said. It's been a few weeks since I flipped through it at Wal-Mart.

Aoi

Kids movie...yeah...what?

Does anyone get that Transformers were only killed by OTHER transformers in this movie? Go ahead, look.

Blackout?

Indeed

The argument could also be made that humans confused Frenzy enough to kill himself.

Blackout slaughters a lot of soldiers.
Frenzy kills 4 secret servicemen.
Prime & Megs fly through an populated building - They might not show the deaths, but dozens of people probably died during that.
Megs throws cars and junk - I doubt the people survived very well.
Starscream blows up 3 Jets - None of the pilots ejected either.

It's hard to single out all the Plot holes in this Whiffle Ball of a plot.

Are you going to do this in every post about the movie?



It's Transformers, its not like plot holes are anything new.

Large Alien Robot organisims that can convert themselves into other forms, obviously high art.

Yes. It's his shtick. H'es only become known because of it, it must continue.
Where would the Joker be without his jokes, after all?

Twice.






I'm just sayin' you can't play Pickle Ball with the script of a good movie.

Jazz's death and frenzy's decapatation didn't jell. Like lots of the movie.



I made a whole thread about that.

i hope in the dvd release there is an added scene or deleted scene showing Megatron "eating" Jazz's spark. to me that would further prove what a bad ass he was. besides, why does Megatron need teeth if he doesn't eat like humans do? I want to see him suck down Jazz's spark the way some people (usually from the south) suck down on crawfish. that would be great!

I think Jazz was beaten up quite a bit prior to Megatron ripping him in half.



Here's another question. Where the hell did the Transformers get all of those bullets that they were shooting?

ANYTHING that would explain why a Giant robot needs a mouth full of incisors would be nice.

Megs sees flames on prime, goes to production office.

"Hey, Prime has a Dumb new augmentation. I deserve a dumb augmentation!"




It's how they poop.


Hey, if they need teeth...

they must have been eating some energon equivalent to fiber cause they were letting the bullets fly left and right! they never had to strain

Megs seemed to strain once or twice, but after a long sleep like that....

First Dump o'the Day... You know?

thats true, he was holding it for a few thousand years or so. maybe thats why he was so cranky towards starscream.

"Is it courage that compels you? Or GAS!?"

^^^lol

Lennox is a Transformer. You didn't know that?


That's be a good argument, expect I'm totally not talking about it.

Scorponok is totally blown to death by humans too, in case anyone forgot that.

Speaking of which -- the Decepticons were weak against highly explosive weaponry -- so would it make sense for the 'Cons in the sequel to adopt alternate modes with shielding against HEAT rounds? I'm assuming SS would tell them "Hay these primates have a way to Powerglide us over"

Easy. They plugged in the cheat code for INFINITE AMMO.

LOL.

Yes, except for the fact that he didn't die. Remember, he dug himself in to escape the attack scene.

AW DAMMIT!
That'll learn me to not scan-misread.

According to the movie guide (which I got at Barnes and Noble on Friday), Frenzy doesn't have a centralized neural net, so any part of his body can function if not attached to the whole. This better explains why his head continues to function w/o the body. I'm not sure of how it works entirely as far as the spark is concerned.

The only mention of a spark is in the Prime section saying his is the most powerful source of energy after the Allspark (hint hint).

Collector books full of retcons arn't THAT enlightening.

Lol! I love the word poop.

I guess the Spark has replaced the concept in the G1 comics of a Transformers Brain Module, which, funilly enough, was located in a Transformers' head. We saw several times a Transformer being completely, well and truely destroyed by having his Brain Module destroyed, Shockwave's, for example, was crushed by Death's Head, I think it was Shrapnel who had his harpooned by Impactor in Target:2006.

The Frenzy question does put alot of confussion on this subject doesn't it? As Masterminicon said he was designed to loose bits of himself. So where was his Spark? I don't subscribed to ideas that he didn't have a Spark and was somehow a remote or semi-autominous or something. That doesn't fit at all. He def had his own personality/sentience.

As for the heroic death aspect, yeah I can see why the writers may have wanted it, but Jazz's heroic attack on Megatron, the other Autobots heroism, Sam's extream heroism, Lennox's combat heroism etc etc etc would have sufficed in my book.

I get what you said, My Alt Mode Sucks (love that nickname) about loads of Autos getting scrapped at the start of the 1986 movie. Poor Prowl was hardly EVER in the cartoon. He pops up in the Movie and gets wasted! No fair! At least we got to see plenty of Jazz before he was totalled.

On the spark/brain module notion. Any one else remember megs asking if SS could be sure Prime's "lazer core" had been extinguished?

When I wrote a TF RPG, (beware fanfic notions) I had the notion that if you belived in Primus, you called it a spark, and if you belived you were built by Quintesons you called it a Lazer Core. Just a thought.

I really like that PC. It kinda shows the notions of religions. Transformers can't truely know their origins, like us, so it's logical that different Transformers beleive different things. In the movie everybot seemed fairly sure the Allspark gave Cybertron life, but where did it come from? Who created the Allspark? Those questions could bring about different beliefs in the Transformers.

...where he probably died.

Thanks Shockprowl. It was part of a TF history I wrote to mesh the TV and comic continuities.

That is what you wish to make of it. Since he did not die on screen, nor his disappearance had any of the usual Hallywood indicators of 'died off-screen', a better case can be made for his survival.

Or that's what you wish to make of it

I mean, immediately after they make the big conclusion "alright, so we know 105 Sabot rounds can kill them."

If we could all just step back from this discussion for a moment....

and get a life plz

Okay, Mr. Star Wars

*witty retort*

I will step back right away, after I correct this poor man's mistake. They make the conclusion after they analyze the remaining tail-section of Scorponok, and I am quite sure the quote goes "hurt", not "kill".

I just don't see the point in arguing over something that happens off-screen (if at all). Scorponok exits the movie when he burrows back into the ground. Next scene.

As far as we know, the only surviving 'Cons were Scorpy and Starscream, as well as Barricade (assumably) so they could be back in the sequel. But regardless, I don't think it's ever been established precisely WHERE a TF's spark is located. So if Jazz's was located in his mid-section area, then who knows where the others' sparks were? Well, except for Meggy and Prime -- at least from what I took from the movie, theirs were located in their chests (in Prime's case, this makes sense. I don't want to get too G1-ish, but going by G1 logic, his spark chamber was behind where he kept the Matrix, so if they DO bring the Matrix into the future movies, it was at least established that his spark is probably in his upper chest area)