Mass shifting. Some of us love it, some of us hate it. So, there's been some debate as to whether or not mass shifting should be in the sequel. I've been doing a lot of thinking on this, and I've come to the conclusion that mass shifting has to pass one test for me to personally be okay with it: The Bond Gadget Test.

The Bond Gadget Test says, essentially, that you do not introduce a new technology into a story without that technology being vital to the same story. If Q spends five or ten minutes explaining to Bond how his new Solar Powered Jet Watch with Grappling Hook works, and Bond does not find himself in a situation where the Solar Powered Jet Watch with Grappling Hook proves to be not only useful, but vital to the success of his mission, then you wasted the audience's time. It's bad storytelling.

So, using Soundwave as an example (although any known mass shifting character will do) the question I pose to you all: what is the situation in which a 40 foot robot becomes not only useful, but vital, as a tiny, hand held object?

Spying would seem the obvious answer, but this first film has already established that there are tiny transformers suited to turning into tiny objects for those sorts of missions, so why send a 40 foot robot, who may not even fit in the hallway of the place you're trying to infiltrate once he transforms?

What is the situation in which the tiny object must become a giant robot, or where a giant robot must become a tiny, hand-held object? Or, reverse it...what is the tactical advantage of a giant space shuttle turning into a robot the same size as a pick-up truck.

Doesn't matter the alt. mode selected, the chosen character for the transformation, or the situation, as long as it would be vital enough to the Decepticon (or Autobot) cause to justify the scene(s) that must exist to give the audience all the details as to how it works.

I thought this was going to be about the lack of a Q in Casino Royale.


Which is okay with me, IMO

Mass shifting would never have occurred to anyone, and would be decried as retarded / stupid / unnecessary / lame / ghey / you name it, if Hasbro had not used Microman toys in its 1984 Transformers line. (The Microman toys didn't "mass shift" either BTW; in that story they were meant to be small 1:1 scale robots.)

It is just crazy to me how people can not recognize that these are just toys. That they have to create this complex rationalization to explain the logic of a children's toy line. There is no logic to it. And IMO arguing about it only kills brain cells / one's likelihood of ever being attractive to the opposite sex.

You've said everything that I would have said only more roffly!

I'm already married!

But, you're right about mass shifting. Unless it's supporters prove can prove us wrong. Accept the challange of this thread, Mass Shifting Supporters!

I can accept this sacrifice.

I weep I ROFFLE so hard!

well for what it's worth I did think of you when I posted that... I just couldn't come up with a way to express the sentiment in a more inclusive manner.

My wang mass-shifts in agreement.

Ah, but does your wang molecular mass shift (mass conversion), or is it simple size shifting (Parts comression). And is it vital to the story?

And how come no Mass Shifting Supporters have answered my question? You know what I think it is...they're too chicken.

Mass-shifting is a stupid concept IMO. Didn't fool me in the 80s & it certainly won't fool me now.

poor hobbs trying to keep his topic on topic despite talk of wangs and gay doods

I do respect what Hobbes is trying to do. which is actually address the concept of Mass shifting in a convincing way to an audience that expects a Photo-realistic world.

I guess my biggest problem with the idea of masshifting (and this really all comes back to Soundwave right?) at this point. Is that in the movie world we HAVE a stereo, and it turns into a 4' robot. Of course there is lots of expansion and stuff there. But its acceptable.

Trying to force the idea of Mass-shifing into this universe now, not only introduces a silly premise BUT it also goes AGAINST the precedent already set by the movie.

BTW - i could totally argue for a certian degree of mass-shifting - i just dont want to cuase ultimately i think its lame.

i agree with hunter.

I agree with Hot Rod's agreeing with Hunter - who I think is right.

yanno, i still can't figure out why anybody gives a flying Powerglide. so some robots mass shift, some don't, big deal.

even in current transformers cartoons mass shifting happens (minicons and their alt modes). so really, why does it matter? it's a bit rediculous to claim your movie will be more in touch with reality, ect... when it's a movie about Powerglideing huge robots from outerspace. also, if frenzy is what we get for espionage, i'd much rather have mass shifting as frenzy looks RETARDED.

mass shifting or not the movie should be great. as for sequels... well i dunno. it'd have deffinatly pissed me off if they didn't change it from kenny-wave to frenzy, as for blackout well, i can see that as being ok for soundwave. blackout is very much espionage and stealth orientated, and thats all i care about, so long as he remains espionage and stealth orientated. when they announced that soundwave was going to be a heli, everybody went bat-Blot because you don't expect a heli to be stealthy. i also remember battle heli being thrown around which is DEFFINATLY not stealthy.

I give a flying Powerglide because when it has been used in the franchise thus far, it's been used in the most aribitrary, and least useful ways it could be used. Which makes for bad storytelling.

I'm not trying to argue the realism of the technology or anything...they're transforming alien robots, they could have mass shifting technology, I get that...I'm arguing the things they use the technology for. That's the real problem with mass shifting, IMO. So, the question becomes, "if you want to see Mass Shifting happen, what's a good reason to use it?"

If there's not a reason to use it besides "the cartoon did" then it needs to be killed and buried.

I think Hobbes wrapped this topic up nicely.

Once again, if the Mass-shifters cant think of anything other than "i like toys from the 70s" to support their need for Mass shifting - then its really a non-issue.

Agreed Hobbes.

Unless they can explain in story why and how a space shuttle or a 747 could reshape itself into a smaller secondary alt. mode, or why a 30 ft. tall robot would want to become a non-mobile, small electronic device - then cool, it could work.

I think it's a cop-out to say "the premise of Transformers isn't based in reality so therefore who cares about mass shifting". I see that argument all the time whenever someone brings up some dumb idea that's found its way into a given property. The excuse is always the same. "Well it's not real duh so that means any unrealistic thing is okay." No it doesn't mean that.

And let's not forget that mass shifting is a RETCON.

They're fecking toys, jeebus, of course they're not always going to be to scale with each other. Or would you prefer every jetformer to be a Supreme class and every carformer to be a basic?

because you pwned any argument i may have had. i only like mass shifting because it rids you of the realism barrier, but the downsides are all hobbes listed and probably more. while i may not have a problem with making such sacrifices to incorporate trainformers, skinny jetformers, etc, the public does unfortunately.

such a cruel cruel world....

*hugs Pete*
I love you some days.

>_> In the totally hetero-manly way of course!

Well, I do really like how closely to scale with each other the Movie Autobots and Barricade are...I wouldn't mind the future toylines to continue that sort of thing, like a "civilian vehicle" scale and a "military vehicle" scale. Not exact, of course, but in terms of which vehicles end up in which size classes...I dig that.

I agree with this Hobbes.

The Autobots & Barricade all seem to be nicely scaled together. While most of the Decepticons seem to be the same. It's very nice looking at Blackout and Starscream next to Brawl and the mini-Scorponok. It gives them a great sense of "Hey that's a pretty good sense of scale going on there."

You may want to look at it from the perspective of "what value does this provide to the consumer". Because I'm sure Hasbro does. There is a certain value to having a bunch of toys that are all scaled to each other. There is also a competing value of having all the toys be equally fun to play with. And I would suspect that Hasbro would be biased toward the second value, rather than the first. Sure, in general you tend to see the larger vehicles made into larger molds (and sold at a larger price point lolz), but it's not ever done exactly. Some kids like to play with airplanes, others like to play with cars. And they're going to lose interest quickly if their toy options are dictated by size class because some older fans are more interested in how they all look together on display.

It's just a bit myopic, is all.

Yes...

Why did you say this like I don't understand this Pete? I'm not so uber-fanboy to think Hasbro has an agenda besides making fun toys that sale well. I just said it is nice to look at them and say - "that scale is pretty cool." That's all. I'm not saying that they should keep it this way forever or make sure everythign is in scale. Jeez man. Sometiems I wonder just how you really think of me at times.

Just because you're usually the barer of wisdom and reality/anti-fanboyism, doesn't mean that I always need you point out what flaws I might have or not have had when I posted that I enjoyed a bit of semi-good scaling.

And my posts are not always (read = never) personal attacks directed at you, angst boy.

Just seemed like I couldn't say that I liked the movie toys sense of scale, without you havign to tell me I'm being myopic and not thinking through it as a company would. I do understand their reasons and expect nothing less from them. I just didn't see a need to be told I was being myopic is all.

EDIT --
Yeah - I was being angsty - be meh. I'm allowed my angst card use 3 times a month.

BUT YOU ARE YOU ARE OMG LOLZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Sorry for not being clearer -- I usually springboard off of specific posts to make larger points that are more generally applicable to "the fandom" than any one person.

oh and

LOL.
That ROFFLED up my day!

Ok to get this back on topic - and to indulge Hobbes a little - here is:
HUNTER'S VERSION OF
HOW MASS SHIFTING COULD WORK IN LIVE A ACTION MOVIE
(at least this is how i would do it)

I'm going to use Soundwave as my example here because we all know thats who we are talking about even if we dont want to admit it.
So lets assume he comes to earth as a 30' robot. And he decides he needs to become a Stereo sound system of some sort that a Human can pick up.
The way i would go about this is by expanding the definition of Nano-Tech. Its already hinted at in the first movie right? and The Mainstream audience has seen a simmilar (albeit very simplified ) notion in practice with Terminator2.

So lets look at the idea of Nano-Tech.
A) Tfs are using it as their Circulitory system. Meaning when they regenerate, this is actually NanoTech rebuilding the damaged body.
B) What is Nano-Tech? For the purposes of Sci-Fi - I am going to define it as: Molecular sized construction robots. Ie: blood cells for TFs. HOWEVER in some cases, some very special bots (like soundwave) they have the ability to really build and construct new forms at the molecular or even atomic level. Essentially these mini robots are going to be playing legos with atoms.
And what makes these bots special is probably not the actual nanotech themselves but the processing power able to create the body maps necessary for this kind of transition. (same could be said for Tripple changers)

So whats going to happen the first time SW transforms into a tape deck is NOT some subspace cubby hole. But rather the extra mass is litterally going to be disentigrated and broken down to its base molecules and atoms. And now what we have to keep in mind is that EVERYTHING that is soundwave, All his thoughts, identity as well as the 30-foot tall robot body map - has to be contained inside this small item the size of an ipod or boombox or something.

Here is where it gets tricky, and where the Fanboys are going to Starscream and where Maybe we can work in some interesting Story twists.

1) When he shrinks - there is going to be a massive discharge of energy. What does that mean to surrounding bots and humans? Not to mention the pure energy required to make the transformation either way. We may only be moving atoms but we still have to move the 30' worth of mass SOMEWHERE? Which could be part of the drive for energy, and could also make him the BIG BAD (in lieu of megatron) and also as a Show Piece make it only necessary for him to TF maybe once or twice during the film.

2) When soundwave decides to rebuild himself, he is (unless all those detached molecules are going to be bagged up in a suitcase for hime going to have to find new material to build from. And maybe unbeknownst to him (until its too late) Earth materials are not nearly as strong as cybertronian metals. Which means that everytime he Tfs, hes gonna get weaker. (abit of War of the Worlds here)

3) Maybe SW's minions are infact a by-product of this mass discharge?? which makes SW more of a Gestalt i suppose. It also means that each one is more like Roller/Drones than individuals.

4) At this point Tapedeck Kibble means nothing. The entire stereo is going to be be the size of a freckle or a mole on the full scale bot, if in fact its displayed externally at all. Which is no problem really but - the way most of the fanboys Starscream about unimportant stuff - i am sure the idea of SW with OUT a 10ft wide tapedeck chest is going to make them Blot themselves.

5) I, uh forgot my fifth point but will come back and add it later.

So this is how I propose Mass Shifting in the movie-verse. But for the record i think the premise is lame and unnecessary.

Your #3 is the best/most acceptable instance on it's own, without the other stuff, because it wouldn't make since for them as a species to be able to turn matter into energy during the Transformation sequence, the energy required alone to pull that off would power cybertron for a billion years

Ok - lets say this works. Soundwave would basically be a constantly shifting and moving Protoform (think BW before they scan an alt. mode). He would also have no need for kibble and very little need to look much like Soundwave outside his head and color-scheme. When Soundwave mass-shifted to be a stereo or whatever - he displaces his extra mass/atoms as Ravage, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Rumble, or others. These robotic drones could be given enough of Soundwave's consciousness or at least mild programming to function on their own as scouts, drones, Soundwave's protectors, or warriors. The onyl issue would be what if Laserbeak got PWN'd by Prime. Then Soundwave would have to find another source of material, or re-configure himself into a smaller robot form, loosing mass/atoms, whic hstory-wise could work. As the Autobots try to annihilate the "Cassettes" in order to de-power and basically destroy SW's chances of being the big baddy.

I agree with you - while this is neat and such - it's also pretty lame, excuse me very lame.

I guess SW has to really become an almost gluttunous Jaba the Hut like figure in that senario. Maybe its this constant consumption (not just by him, but by the cybertronians enmasse) thats draining the planet's resources to begin with.
Also like i said - he wouldnt be able to pull this trick very often.

Hunter,

That's actually a really creative and neat explanation of how it could work, and I think the visuals that come from that would be awesome on screen.

But I'm not really looking for the how. I don't need the how, because my suspension of disbelief stops here:



Why would he do that? What could possibly be the advantage to a 30' robot becoming a stereo as opposed to a four foot bot like Frenzy? I need the story point that would make him need or want to do that. After I have that story point, I'll listen to any techno-babble to explain how it happens.

Heck, if the why-he would-do-it is strong enough, I might not even need an explanation how-he-would-do-it.

Nano-tech I guess could be used to help with the mass shift and sense these guys already "automorph" maybe they could use liquid metal like in T2. There is a catch to this thought, there would have to be limit of sorts. What that limit is, I don't know.

yeah sorry Hobbes. Once again - i might have been able to think up some motivation here - but really the concept of:
Frenzy and Blackout =====>scorponik
really defeats any need for a GIANT robot becoming small.

So the movieverse has already negated any motivation these guys would have for mass shifting EVEN IF THEY COULD


Dude!! Did you even read my post? cause i already compared it to T2 and gave some suggested limitations.

I know...which is why I started this thread. Certain mass shifting supporters insist that Murphy and crew are going to give us mass shifting in the next movies, and that the reason they're waiting until next movie is because mass shifting requires an explanation that would only slow the plot to this first movie down. And, while I agree it would slow this first movie down, I want to know what they think mass shifting could possibly bring to the table as a technology the Transformers use to justify its use in any of the movies.

I'll go ahead and surrender to the "protoform mass shifts when scanning a new form" idea. To me, its feasible that Optimus could scan a motorbike or a battleship and wind up with a proportionatly sized bot mode from that*...but shifting during transformation the way the old cartoon did is silly and unneeded.





*Also, I think it would rule if in one of the sequels, maybe the end of third movie to close out the trilogy, if Optimus and Megatron were fighting, and the fight just kept going, across country or something, and they just kept scanning different modes again and again to increase their size/power or decrease their size to evade their opponent. And we could get like 2 dozen Prime and Megatron toys from that fight scene alone.

At some point you have to stop and say "at what point does this cease to be TRANSFORMERS?" Liquid metal? Jeebus, Beast-Machines-redux backlash, anyone?

That made me think of the wizard's Duel in Disney's Sword And the Stone! and i got some Fanwood. Imagine them hitting a Natural history museum and T-rex megs and OP-Primal emerge!


Pete, squelches my ghey attempts at scifi writing.


BTW - i have been informed that a simmilar situation to what i suggested happens in IDW's TF comic - megatron emits a burst of radiation when he TFs into a pistol. I dont read teh IDW stuffs, and did not know that. But i would be curious to hear how IDW handled this concept, if in fact they did.

It just seems like a LOOOOOOOOOT of explanation for an concept that isn't needed.

Oh, snap! And what if Megatron actually scanned Optimus's Bot Mode, and then transformed, and Megatron's alt. mode was a replica of Prime, and while they fight Megatron gives a speech about how they're "two sides of the same coin" and stuff!?

Oh, the geekiness! Or have I gone too far?

certainly not
i would pay to see that, if Bay reads that he'll pass out from the possibilities.

he want's a showpiece...

*considers e-mailing post to Nelson at Shootfortheedit.com*

Just what we need. An entire line of Optimus Primes and Megatrons.

The reason for size or mass shifting, from a story perspective, is that it allows larger bots, like Soundwave and Perceptor, take on modes which are better suited to their individual functions as well as hide in plain sight because those modes are also very innocuous. A small bot is well suited for espionage, which is apparently Frenzy's function in the movie now, but would not be suited for an upper eschelon officer like Soundwave because power is a key factor in Decepticon ranks, and a small bot would not be that powerful. And, even in the Autobot ranks, a large size will likely garmer more respect than a 4' tall pipsqueek would. A larger robot mode is also better suited for combat once it commences. Having an alt mode which is small but that better suits a character's given function, and a larger robot mode for combat, or simply being able to better interact with your peers, makes mass shifting very useful. A mode like a stereo system is better suited for recieving transmissions and radio waves, as well as relaying that information to the commander. Sure, a communications vehicle could pick up the signals, but how would Megatron recieve the messages or hear the transmissions? From my own experience in the Army as a communications specialist, someone needs to man a communications van and then deliver the messages. With an alt mode that is a radio, the other Decepticons could hear the transmissions directly as Soundwave recieves them, or he can play them back later. Therefore, given his position in the Decepticon heirarchy, as well as his function as Communications Officer, the ability to mass shift into a small communications devce, like a stereo system or computer, is pretty essential. An alt mode like a microscope is better suited for scientific studies and examining various subjects. and, in both cases, having over-sized versions of those types of objects would be even more ridiculous than the ability to shrink down to the proper size for such an object.

As to how it is done, just take a cue from TF: More than Meets the Eye #8 which defines "Mass conversion" as follows—

There you have a reason, and a pseudo-scientific method for mass shifting.

Now, obviously, that could be too much for the first movie, which already has alot to explain or have people simply take for granted, and too much could break down the suspension of disbelief. However, in a sequel, since all the rest as been covered already, they can introduce new concepts to the story without causing such a breakdown. You simply can't throw in too many fantastic concepts at once. They need to be broken down into smaller pieces over more movies.

Why wouldnt Soundwave just play the car radio to megatron if hearing it directly from a radio is so important?
or i suppose he could just lay in sam's sock drawer hoping that someone takes him back to megatron and pushes the play button.

Your comments about your experiences in the army show that you arent quite getting the LIVING ALIEN robot aspect of the Transformers Concept.

Seriously though, i think some of you are just being intentionally obtuse about this.