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Unfortunately what we are dealing with is ultimately an ongoing "Comic/periodical" continuity.
Just like Batman, Superman, Spiderman etal. Have died numerous times, and have been heroes for som 50 odd years and not aged a day (truth being that spidy has aged about 20 years in the last 40) - They are still with us. Why?
Well as the fan base grows and ages, over time it is necessary for the franchise to reset itself. Each generation must have its heroes, its Great Wars, its Victories, and finally its tragedies.
Transformers has a couple benefits in this catagory that make it adapt perhaps slightly better than say a mortal human like Batman....
A) They are millions of years old
B) They are robots - so the idea of reformatting and new bodies is not as strained as batman miraculously healing from a broken back
C) They have adopted a completely episodic format where in G1 (and the above superheroes are all continuous) Armada and energeon may or may not be in the same universe but they are seperate stories. Galaxy Force is yet another Story
even G1 and BW are completely seperate even though they rely on the same general mythos. RiD was its own sad little attempt at a storyline
Now just because they have these advantages - doesnt necessarily mean that anyone is doing quality work or anything enrgeon >cough< RiD >cough< But the format gives them some advantages....
Hunter
"If i was a tree I'd be a cut down tree, and if i was a Bed id be an unmade bed"
Just like Batman, Superman, Spiderman etal. Have died numerous times, and have been heroes for som 50 odd years and not aged a day (truth being that spidy has aged about 20 years in the last 40) - They are still with us. Why?
Well as the fan base grows and ages, over time it is necessary for the franchise to reset itself. Each generation must have its heroes, its Great Wars, its Victories, and finally its tragedies.
Transformers has a couple benefits in this catagory that make it adapt perhaps slightly better than say a mortal human like Batman....
A) They are millions of years old
B) They are robots - so the idea of reformatting and new bodies is not as strained as batman miraculously healing from a broken back
C) They have adopted a completely episodic format where in G1 (and the above superheroes are all continuous) Armada and energeon may or may not be in the same universe but they are seperate stories. Galaxy Force is yet another Story
even G1 and BW are completely seperate even though they rely on the same general mythos. RiD was its own sad little attempt at a storyline
Now just because they have these advantages - doesnt necessarily mean that anyone is doing quality work or anything enrgeon >cough< RiD >cough< But the format gives them some advantages....
Hunter
"If i was a tree I'd be a cut down tree, and if i was a Bed id be an unmade bed"
Hasbro has a limited supply of trademarked Transformer names. Not allowing Transformers to die is the way that they reconcile reusing the same names over and over. We've all seen what happens when they run out of good names. Vroom. Hun-Grrr. T-Wrecks. 30 reincarnations of Optimus Prime is fine with me.
In My opinion TFs can only die when there Spark is exasted, or destroyed,
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Not a fan of undying either. I'm not a fan of sparks personally, feel it cheapens everything.
Take Inferno's death in Energon for instance, totally saw it coming and totally just plain didn't care, 'cause I knew he'd come back as a repaint. Although I was surprise he came back as a remold. Or something, I dunno, he seems to have been totally ignored after his little story arc. All I know is he became yellow, my monitor's setting is rather dark, so hard to tell, seemed to have the general shape though.
Then there's Demolisher, that one was well done as well, and one I had more hope for because at the time, didn't know how Energon was gonna handle things, but when Demolisher came back as comedy relief...
Of course, returning from death isn't always bad. But what you do after is just as important I think.
I had no problem with God Ginrai dying, then having a body transplant into Victory Leo, who then played a large supporting role for the rest of the series, rather than simply be tossed aside after his toy's animated form is shown.
I guess I'm just not very spiritual, I guess... I need to have something physical to show for it. Having the Transformer's body be beat till it can no longer function and current technology/knowledge is unable to repair it whilst retaining the memories/personality/life/spark, then coming along later to transfer that spark/lasercore to a functional/repaired body, yes.
Having the Transformer VAPORIZED and then bringing him back in the next ep in a 20-45 second sequence, then tossing him away? No. At least let there be a challenge in bringing them back. At least go look for special Cybertronian alloy.
Unicron's a bit of an exception though, simply because by all rights, he's the biggest big bad around. Still, some limits oughto be put in place, otherwise, there's just no meaning to it.
So, cheating death is okay if it's well done. But cheating death to the degree where you don't care if the character dies? That's a no-no I'd say.
Take Inferno's death in Energon for instance, totally saw it coming and totally just plain didn't care, 'cause I knew he'd come back as a repaint. Although I was surprise he came back as a remold. Or something, I dunno, he seems to have been totally ignored after his little story arc. All I know is he became yellow, my monitor's setting is rather dark, so hard to tell, seemed to have the general shape though.
Then there's Demolisher, that one was well done as well, and one I had more hope for because at the time, didn't know how Energon was gonna handle things, but when Demolisher came back as comedy relief...
Of course, returning from death isn't always bad. But what you do after is just as important I think.
I had no problem with God Ginrai dying, then having a body transplant into Victory Leo, who then played a large supporting role for the rest of the series, rather than simply be tossed aside after his toy's animated form is shown.
I guess I'm just not very spiritual, I guess... I need to have something physical to show for it. Having the Transformer's body be beat till it can no longer function and current technology/knowledge is unable to repair it whilst retaining the memories/personality/life/spark, then coming along later to transfer that spark/lasercore to a functional/repaired body, yes.
Having the Transformer VAPORIZED and then bringing him back in the next ep in a 20-45 second sequence, then tossing him away? No. At least let there be a challenge in bringing them back. At least go look for special Cybertronian alloy.
Unicron's a bit of an exception though, simply because by all rights, he's the biggest big bad around. Still, some limits oughto be put in place, otherwise, there's just no meaning to it.
So, cheating death is okay if it's well done. But cheating death to the degree where you don't care if the character dies? That's a no-no I'd say.
Come on yall lets all be honest with ourselves. They come back to life so we can keep spending money on the new and improved whomever
As a comic book fan their are mythos that you cannot kill. (tried it once with superman. Yall remember the outcry from that). As far as batman is concerned
you cannot have anyone be batman. As far as the world is concerned batman will always be bruce wayne.
I also think like all fiction you want that sort of continuity with specific characters that we hold dear.
As a comic book fan their are mythos that you cannot kill. (tried it once with superman. Yall remember the outcry from that). As far as batman is concerned
you cannot have anyone be batman. As far as the world is concerned batman will always be bruce wayne.
I also think like all fiction you want that sort of continuity with specific characters that we hold dear.
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QUOTE (SkywarpsGhost @ Jan 11 2005, 02:35 PM)
Sparks...
I liked Laser Core more personally but it seems Spark is gonna be the keeper. Well then question... WHERE is there Spark, and what is there Spark while we are at it? Is it in there head like our brains or in there chests like our hearts, or are you gonna go all Furman and say it's there soul and is all around them or something?
What part would you need to shoot to extinguish a Spark?
I liked Laser Core more personally but it seems Spark is gonna be the keeper. Well then question... WHERE is there Spark, and what is there Spark while we are at it? Is it in there head like our brains or in there chests like our hearts, or are you gonna go all Furman and say it's there soul and is all around them or something?
What part would you need to shoot to extinguish a Spark?
I do not think a Spark can be extinguished by shooting it. A Spark is extinguished when the body is heavily damaged, and energon levels are severely low (like our blood, we lose too much, we can die, and even blood transfusions do not always work, same is true with energon and TF's). The only way we know a Spark can be destroyed, is by running it through with raw energon. That seemed to destroy the Spark, and cause a shockwave (BW: Nemesis part 1).
Hard question to answer... I think in the cause of Beast Wars though, it seemed more like death was final.. yet characters are usually dismembered quite often.. Using Dinobot as a model, I'll say that death can be reached if there's nothing left to stabilize the spark.. kind like when your computer breaks.. sure, perhaps you can get the hard drive back, but you may loose files.. it becomes an entirely new being.
Least that's my spin on it.
Least that's my spin on it.
The Spark is Usaly in the chest, save waspinator 
If you could recover a Bolt of him, he could be revieved!!!
If you could recover a Bolt of him, he could be revieved!!!
Millions of years of intense battling would have killed them all numerous times. If they just died when killed, the race would have been driven to extintion long ago. Since it isn't very easy to create a new Transformer (Spark), it's only logical that they had to replace alot of bodies. And since some like to change their name everytime they get a new paint job (and you know who you are Megatron/Galvatron), it is probably thought of as commonplace to consider someone as a new person when they get a new body. Call it reincarnation if you will.
I think mass is right although we look at the transformers as a lifeform they are in fact data and memory files in a shell and like all files they can always be copied and recopied to a certain extint then you get a currupt copy (maybe the birth of the decepticons.) I also have to agree with what he said about them fighting for millions of years sooner or later some body parts or an entire body has to be replaced there for why have the same name if you don't look like what you used to look like. and not only megatron/galvatron, look at optimus prime
Orion Pacs-Optimus Prime-Power master optimus prime-and so forth and so forth.
Orion Pacs-Optimus Prime-Power master optimus prime-and so forth and so forth.
all the above and it saves the trouble of finding new voice actors
I'm not a big fan of bringing back TF's. If the writers have them die it's for some climactic purpose which is later crapped on as the come back one after the other. 
It also cheapens the story as none would really "fear" death.
I'm for the reformatting bit as Scourge, Cyclonus and Galvatron had when so close to death, but reformatting a new colour on a perfectly good soldier is lame.
It also cheapens the story as none would really "fear" death.I'm for the reformatting bit as Scourge, Cyclonus and Galvatron had when so close to death, but reformatting a new colour on a perfectly good soldier is lame.
To me it's just when their Lasercores are damaged beyond repair, causing the decay of their Sparks, til they die and their essences join the Matrix.
Cause I prefer TF's being robots with souls and not just robots with sentient programming trying to be alive, I find that just a weak device there. And everything always points to that as well, or so I think.
So to me:
Prime should have stayed dead...his Lasercore was damaged and he died.
Ultra Magnus survived because his Lasercore was not damaged enough and his upper-body was left really intact, just his arms and legs and head were blown off.
Prowl, Brawn, Ratchet, Wheeljack, and Windcharger were shot straight through their Lasercores.
Cause I prefer TF's being robots with souls and not just robots with sentient programming trying to be alive, I find that just a weak device there. And everything always points to that as well, or so I think.
So to me:
Prime should have stayed dead...his Lasercore was damaged and he died.
Ultra Magnus survived because his Lasercore was not damaged enough and his upper-body was left really intact, just his arms and legs and head were blown off.
Prowl, Brawn, Ratchet, Wheeljack, and Windcharger were shot straight through their Lasercores.
Revival, and rebirth are necessary due to the small cast of characters. The problem is that it's almost never handled correctly. Most time rebirth is just switching bodies, which all the TF's should be able to do whenever they please, without their spark being altered. Getting a new name because of the body jump is retarded too. Obviously they do this to sell more toys.
This is how they should handle deaths in TF's. (It's a little long, but it's good. I swear)...
When a TF body stops working (due to age or damage), but the spark chamber/lasercore survives (which would be often because the chamber should be extremely well protected), the chamber should be removed by the others and saved.
It can implanted into a new body that meets the compatability criteria of the disembodied spark. If a new body is not found that their spark "accepts", the chamber is put into stasis with other "dormant" TF's who are all networked together with the TF's main computer system, so that the character is still around, and somewhat accessible (i.e., even though Wheeljack is "dead", he is teaching a new fix-it bot to make repairs and upgrades through this database of virtual interaction).
TF's that yearn for a rest or a break from war can choose to become part of this collective as well (or maybe they have to, to defrag their spraks every few hundred years or so).
This still gives a chance for new characters to join the fold, for the old ones to exist and make a contribution, and occasionally (rarely) when a spark chamber/laser core is destroyed, it is a true crushing blow to their friends and their faction's cause.
This is how they should handle deaths in TF's. (It's a little long, but it's good. I swear)...
When a TF body stops working (due to age or damage), but the spark chamber/lasercore survives (which would be often because the chamber should be extremely well protected), the chamber should be removed by the others and saved.
It can implanted into a new body that meets the compatability criteria of the disembodied spark. If a new body is not found that their spark "accepts", the chamber is put into stasis with other "dormant" TF's who are all networked together with the TF's main computer system, so that the character is still around, and somewhat accessible (i.e., even though Wheeljack is "dead", he is teaching a new fix-it bot to make repairs and upgrades through this database of virtual interaction).
TF's that yearn for a rest or a break from war can choose to become part of this collective as well (or maybe they have to, to defrag their spraks every few hundred years or so).
This still gives a chance for new characters to join the fold, for the old ones to exist and make a contribution, and occasionally (rarely) when a spark chamber/laser core is destroyed, it is a true crushing blow to their friends and their faction's cause.
QUOTE (splendic @ Jan 11 2005, 07:01 PM)
Revival, and rebirth are necessary due to the small cast of characters. The problem is that it's almost never handled correctly. Most time rebirth is just switching bodies, which all the TF's should be able to do whenever they please, without their spark being altered. Getting a new name because of the body jump is retarded too. Obviously they do this to sell more toys.
This is how they should handle deaths in TF's. (It's a little long, but it's good. I swear)...
When a TF body stops working (due to age or damage), but the spark chamber/lasercore survives (which would be often because the chamber should be extremely well protected), the chamber should be removed by the others and saved.
It can implanted into a new body that meets the compatability criteria of the disembodied spark. If a new body is not found that their spark "accepts", the chamber is put into stasis with other "dormant" TF's who are all networked together with the TF's main computer system, so that the character is still around, and somewhat accessible (i.e., even though Wheeljack is "dead", he is teaching a new fix-it bot to make repairs and upgrades through this database of virtual interaction).
TF's that yearn for a rest or a break from war can choose to become part of this collective as well (or maybe they have to, to defrag their spraks every few hundred years or so).
This still gives a chance for new characters to join the fold, for the old ones to exist and make a contribution, and occasionally (rarely) when a spark chamber/laser core is destroyed, it is a true crushing blow to their friends and their faction's cause.
This is how they should handle deaths in TF's. (It's a little long, but it's good. I swear)...
When a TF body stops working (due to age or damage), but the spark chamber/lasercore survives (which would be often because the chamber should be extremely well protected), the chamber should be removed by the others and saved.
It can implanted into a new body that meets the compatability criteria of the disembodied spark. If a new body is not found that their spark "accepts", the chamber is put into stasis with other "dormant" TF's who are all networked together with the TF's main computer system, so that the character is still around, and somewhat accessible (i.e., even though Wheeljack is "dead", he is teaching a new fix-it bot to make repairs and upgrades through this database of virtual interaction).
TF's that yearn for a rest or a break from war can choose to become part of this collective as well (or maybe they have to, to defrag their spraks every few hundred years or so).
This still gives a chance for new characters to join the fold, for the old ones to exist and make a contribution, and occasionally (rarely) when a spark chamber/laser core is destroyed, it is a true crushing blow to their friends and their faction's cause.
EXACTLY what I was trying to say. And exactly what I believe.
Death only occures when the Lasercore is damaged beyond repair which is what I believe happened to Prime, since Megatron concentrated on a single area on Prime -- his abdominal area.
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QUOTE (SkywarpsGhost @ Jan 12 2005, 06:57 AM)
Deathmarch, Splendic... have you seen the movie "Underworld"?
I'm more for a slightly different approach lately called "How Old Is Bender?" from Futurama.
If you don't know... he's four.
I'm starting to like the idea (doesn't work for G1, but I'd like it for the other lines) that since they are born adult and sentinent into a constant state of war they have VERY short life spans. I mean, it's just starting to feel strange that after millions of years Megatron can't do Optimus Prime in. He's either not trying hard enough, or just is a suxxor.
I'm more for a slightly different approach lately called "How Old Is Bender?" from Futurama.
If you don't know... he's four.
I'm starting to like the idea (doesn't work for G1, but I'd like it for the other lines) that since they are born adult and sentinent into a constant state of war they have VERY short life spans. I mean, it's just starting to feel strange that after millions of years Megatron can't do Optimus Prime in. He's either not trying hard enough, or just is a suxxor.
I have seen Underworld, but don't really know why you asked (because the vamps sleep ever few hundred years?).
If the Bots can constantly swap bodies and upgrade themselves it stands to reason that they could last quite awhile (millions of years is quite a stretch, but...), an it be pretty hard to "kill" them.
...and Bender is actually about 1054 (he was left behind on Earth when Fry F'ed his grandma)
Here is my take on how it should work (please excuse the fanboyishness of it 
)
Okay the spark thing is fine, let's say it a "personality base" for the TF that it inhabits... then you have seperate systems for logic, memory, morality... All seperate and spread through out the body depending on a design. So what happens is, if a body is destroyed, you lose everything but the personality base (which is like being, brash, contemplative, moral, immoral, etc..) So in essence, the Transformer does die, all memories are gone. But the spark can be moved to another body.
This theory might also help explain why Galvatron would go by "galvatron" after his reformatting and not stick to Megatron... which any sane person would have done
)Okay the spark thing is fine, let's say it a "personality base" for the TF that it inhabits... then you have seperate systems for logic, memory, morality... All seperate and spread through out the body depending on a design. So what happens is, if a body is destroyed, you lose everything but the personality base (which is like being, brash, contemplative, moral, immoral, etc..) So in essence, the Transformer does die, all memories are gone. But the spark can be moved to another body.
This theory might also help explain why Galvatron would go by "galvatron" after his reformatting and not stick to Megatron... which any sane person would have done
QUOTE (SkywarpsGhost @ Jan 12 2005, 06:57 AM)
Deathmarch, Splendic... have you seen the movie "Underworld"?
I'm more for a slightly different approach lately called "How Old Is Bender?" from Futurama.
If you don't know... he's four.
I'm starting to like the idea (doesn't work for G1, but I'd like it for the other lines) that since they are born adult and sentinent into a constant state of war they have VERY short life spans. I mean, it's just starting to feel strange that after millions of years Megatron can't do Optimus Prime in. He's either not trying hard enough, or just is a suxxor.
I'm more for a slightly different approach lately called "How Old Is Bender?" from Futurama.
If you don't know... he's four.
I'm starting to like the idea (doesn't work for G1, but I'd like it for the other lines) that since they are born adult and sentinent into a constant state of war they have VERY short life spans. I mean, it's just starting to feel strange that after millions of years Megatron can't do Optimus Prime in. He's either not trying hard enough, or just is a suxxor.
Not sure why you're suggesting this Movie...and Yes I've seen it.
I don't think they live very short lives, in all honesty. If their Lasercore has to be destroyed, it could take 100 "deaths" to even get it right. And it's obvious that they live millions of years. Because Prime lived for 5 million years before he even went to earth. This would put Megatron at an even older age. And then if you start talking bout Kup and Ironhide...they are even older.
To me I've always done it with this formula:
200,000 Earth Years = 1 Transformer Year.
The math has always seemed to work well for this formula.
If you did Prime's age for this he works out to be 45 years old. Which to me seems right for a seasoned leader.
Robot's having souls that can leave their bodies kinda takes away from them being machines. Look at Data from Star Trek. He can take off his head, leave it underneath San Francisco for hundreds of years, and reattach it and feel just fine. He didn't have a spark. If you blow him up, he's dead. No spark. Just circuits and chips. Transfomers should be the same way.
QUOTE (LoneDrifter @ Jan 12 2005, 10:36 AM)
Robot's having souls that can leave their bodies kinda takes away from them being machines. Look at Data from Star Trek. He can take off his head, leave it underneath San Francisco for hundreds of years, and reattach it and feel just fine. He didn't have a spark. If you blow him up, he's dead. No spark. Just circuits and chips. Transfomers should be the same way.
But there not, that goes against the Cannon, whan you become a bigtime TF writer ytou can TRY to retcon sparks, but now the Cannon says that Sparks exist.
QUOTE (LoneDrifter @ Jan 12 2005, 09:36 AM)
Robot's having souls that can leave their bodies kinda takes away from them being machines. Look at Data from Star Trek. He can take off his head, leave it underneath San Francisco for hundreds of years, and reattach it and feel just fine. He didn't have a spark. If you blow him up, he's dead. No spark. Just circuits and chips. Transfomers should be the same way.
Well as I've said before...
I do not like the idea that they are just robots with sentient programming. Having Sparks/Souls makes them much more than an army of robots. Because if they were just robots you could wipe their sentient programming clean and I think that is a bit lame. Having souls makes them much better than many other robot properties, makes them better.
QUOTE (Orion Paximus Prime @ Jan 12 2005, 05:00 PM)
Here is my take on how it should work (please excuse the fanboyishness of it )
Okay the spark thing is fine, let's say it a "personality base" for the TF that it inhabits... then you have seperate systems for logic, memory, morality... All seperate and spread through out the body depending on a design. So what happens is, if a body is destroyed, you lose everything but the personality base (which is like being, brash, contemplative, moral, immoral, etc..) So in essence, the Transformer does die, all memories are gone. But the spark can be moved to another body.
This theory might also help explain why Galvatron would go by "galvatron" after his reformatting and not stick to Megatron... which any sane person would have done
)Okay the spark thing is fine, let's say it a "personality base" for the TF that it inhabits... then you have seperate systems for logic, memory, morality... All seperate and spread through out the body depending on a design. So what happens is, if a body is destroyed, you lose everything but the personality base (which is like being, brash, contemplative, moral, immoral, etc..) So in essence, the Transformer does die, all memories are gone. But the spark can be moved to another body.
This theory might also help explain why Galvatron would go by "galvatron" after his reformatting and not stick to Megatron... which any sane person would have done
i agree with this idea its much like the idea of reincarnation. maybe all the prowl's inferno's and other over used names have been calsed by TF's looking into thier past life when being formed and it had a huge effect on them
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QUOTE (SkywarpsGhost @ Jan 12 2005, 11:11 AM)
hmmm... I do recall that episdoe of Futurama as well.
The asking of Underworld... I only saw it once, but was under the impression they (the lead 3 vampires) had some strange system sorta like what you mentioned, where it was a b!tch to actually kill one of them, but if you did it PERMANENTLY they'd feel a sense of loss for one another.
Just reminded me of it... felt similar upon the first reading, I was wondering if that's where you where coming from with "how they'd take loss" ya know?
The asking of Underworld... I only saw it once, but was under the impression they (the lead 3 vampires) had some strange system sorta like what you mentioned, where it was a b!tch to actually kill one of them, but if you did it PERMANENTLY they'd feel a sense of loss for one another.
Just reminded me of it... felt similar upon the first reading, I was wondering if that's where you where coming from with "how they'd take loss" ya know?
I wasn't considering that when I wrote the idea. I mean, if your friends live and battle along side you for hundreds, thousands, or millions of years, and it's near impossible for your race to really die, then when one does it must be so much more devatsting then we could imagine.
This could be one of the reasons the Cons are out to crush other species, don't feel bad about it, and feel that there way is natural. How inferior would you consider a race that lived 100 years (max), when you and yours is averaging a few million?
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QUOTE (SkywarpsGhost @ Jan 12 2005, 11:37 AM)
probably the same way I feel about goldfish
Yup exactly...that's how I would see it. Which adds a good amount of more depth to the characterization of the 'Cons Cause. If they cna live for so long, then why wouldn't they feel superior to others.
a question that also springs to mind is, how long will a transformers memory circuits continue to hold data if there is a complete loss of power... ie; out of energon or energy directing systems fail
QUOTE (Orion Paximus Prime @ Jan 12 2005, 11:46 AM)
a question that also springs to mind is, how long will a transformers memory circuits continue to hold data if there is a complete loss of power... ie; out of energon or energy directing systems fail
forever...hard drives and current flash memory cards are not dependent on energy to retain data. I figure the spark and it's chamber are what tie all of their systems together into a cohesive whole like our brains do for our organs.
QUOTE (splendic @ Jan 12 2005, 12:18 PM)
QUOTE (Orion Paximus Prime @ Jan 12 2005, 11:46 AM)
a question that also springs to mind is, how long will a transformers memory circuits continue to hold data if there is a complete loss of power... ie; out of energon or energy directing systems fail
forever...hard drives and current flash memory cards are not dependent on energy to retain data. I figure the spark and it's chamber are what tie all of their systems together into a cohesive whole like our brains do for our organs.
Yup...exactly.
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