http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AS_Batman.htm
I find this interesting especially since Frank Miller doesn't seem like the biggest Dick Grayson fan (i.e. Dark Knight Strikes Again).

DK2 was about taking all the accusations about comic icons and shoving it right back down the critics' collective throat. The thing you mention was a take on the oft joked about homosexual relationship between Batman & Robin, not Miller's feelings of how Robin should be portrayed in a proper story.

I just pretend the DKSA never happened....and Miller still owes me $9 for it...

no, I meant he didn't look like he liked Robin because he always had Bats poke fun at Dick in both DK and DK2. And he made Dick evil in DK2 as well, not to mention a whiny lil Starscream. But Miller did make Hawk and Dove look gay, which is odd cuz they're brothers

color covers at newsarama

I know that All-Star is like the "classic" representations of what we know & love about the characters, but for Pete's sake put some pants on Robin!

it's kinda like DC's answer to Marel's Ultimate line. Robin gets a new look in later issues.

um... no. Dick Grayson never wore 'pants' until he became Nightwing.

he knows that. He's just making fun of the short shorts 

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AllStarSuperman_Morrison.htm



Can you say...Mini-Me? (Pictures Mini-Superman with a pinky pressed to the corner of his lips)

probably shoulda posted that in this thread, but oh well

I wasn't really here last year, only the last few weeks, so I didn't know that thread was in existence. *shrugs* Sorry.

I know, I wasn't expecting you to be aware. I was just making you aware. It's all good

so did anybody catch the first issue, what'd you guys think. I love Miller's writing and Lee's drawing, so it's good to me. I love how things are more modern, like how Dick's parents were shot instead, and how cops were gonna take him out as well. Can't wait to see characters like Joker, Catwoman, and Superman. I think they're on for 12 issues but I'm not certain.

Just read it today
not thrilled - Its like Miller is doing a Parody of his Sin City work but it has spandex in it and really bad dialogue.

Miller just doesnt feel like he is writing a Batman story
and although Lee is competent enough - He certainly isnt drawing a SinCity story - so .....

shrugs

I prolly wont continue this one
Hunter

Miller's writing is always gritty, From Gothom to New Detroit to Basin City. Lee's artwork helps revive those characters taht we've known since Adam West, and in pace with Miller's writing! Question is will they hold true to that infamous "candlelight oath" shot?

I love this book, even though we don't see Batman til the end. But it was pure Miller-Batman goodness, especially the bit with the poison tipped Batarangs. Or with the cops about to beat a small boy to death. Very different take on Robin's origin that is much darker than the original with a hint of police corruption. I mean, c'mon Gotham cops were as bad as they come back then. Really looking forward to Miller/Lee's All Star take on upcoming characters like Superman, Joker, Two-Face, and Catwoman

Yeah, the way Robin's parents died was way unexpected and pretty harsh. Vicky Vale kinda bugged me, but I'm not sure why. Maybe it was the whole "pushy reporter" thing, but she just kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

Although that pin-up worthy panel of her her apartment made up for it.


Now, bring on issue #2!

I love Frank Miller's Batman, especially Dick's "Clint Eastwood" reference and how they point out that he speaks in a different voice when he's trying to intimidate (especially with the laughter, cuz Batman's laugh is creepy). Loved the flying Batmobile, and the way he handled the Gotham police. I love this book, I just hate having to wait 6 weeks for it to come out.

agreed. this series is Miller at his absolute worst. And most of my friends who have collected Batman for 20+ years also hate this book. HATE it. It's only the kids that have read little to no Batman that are enjoying it.

I resent that since I am not a kid, but I am not a 20+ years reader either. I am a 13+ years reader, and I've read as much Batman material I can get my hands on. I'm no expert, but I know a lot. Ask anybody in this forum 
That being said, I enjoy it, you don't, we're different, end of story. I like Miller's Batman stories, you don't. Miller says this basically follows his Year One story, I read it that way, and I like it. If you don't, that's ok. Just don't speak ill of fans that do like it by calling them kids. All the 30+years fans at my comic shop like it, I don't consider them to be kids.

Thats the Problem -
I DO like Miller's Batman stuff - alot!

And this doesnt feel like that...

I am not judging any aspect of the fandom though - but -meh i wont be continuing it

yeah, I know you aren't. I was mainly responding to GaoGaiGar's comment. And I know what you mean, I love Grant Morrison, but didn't enjoy his run on New X-Men. Sometimes it is hit or miss, even good writers can't please everybody.

I'm not hating it at all...

though it was a lil much for him to TRY to freak out Grayson. When he was talking all posesive in the batmobile "my ward"...that was really out of character it seemed...kind of had the "scary old priest" feel to it (no offence to you catholics).

Art, well I LOVE Jim Lee...period. Though actually I think JAE Lee's style may have been better for this...but that's just me.

issue two is actually worse than issue one. He's actually calling Robion a little bastard and a snot? The writing is like those early 90s Image comics from Extreme!!!!!! Studios, where the heroes are completely vile because their audiance (13 year old boys mainly) think that THAT is kewler than a real super hero. Toss in some pretty girl in a thong for no good reason other than to get your audiance off and you've got early Image Comics brought back from the dead. The teenies can have this crap.

This entire family of titles has been going down the crapper since Denny O'Neil stepped down as group editor. I desperately hope that the rumors that Grant Morrison taking over Tec in 06 pan out. We desperately need a Batman comic not written by people who are just in it for the paycheck.

I loved his Gotham Knights covers, he would be a good pic for the next creative team. Morrison is supposed to be very integral to DC for the next year or so. A Grant Morrison/Jae Lee creative team would be pretty good.

ya know...

could have just said

"not my style"

I mean that is what I say about Clarmont's X-men and current Spiderman (save Ultimate)

it's beyond 'not my style'. It's a sad reflection of people who just do not get Batman and are ruining the character. It's like having Joel Schumacher in charge of the comics franchise. The sad part is that Batman is still in character in other books, so this is CLEARLY a problem from the editorial level.

I just hope that after this serial ends they get someone like Paul Dini to write ASB&R. He GETS the character like no one has since the 70s. 

You guys obviously never read "Return of the Dark Knight" but Miller always has a poetic sense when writing. I just got #2 and its his classic, Sadistic, brutally fear-driving BATMAN! Its just when it clashes with Lee's artwork that it really doesn't fit but overall I'm liking this series even more!

thank you, that's exactly what I'm talking about 
Loved the bit where he ran over the cops 

I think you mean the Dark Knight Returns. And yes, I've read it. I've posted my opinion on it in the DKR thread. I certainly liked it more than All-Star Angry Cop Killer Who Abuses Children, but it's lasting impact on the character has been disasterous. It's more of an Anti-Adam West than it is a character development. It's lead to two decades of bad writers playing copycat to Miller's sadistic Batman and teenies screaming for more. Now we'll be suffering thru a decade of children screaming their praises at Batman pimp-smacking Robin and calling him a retard in between killing cops. It's GTA: Gotham City. The only thing missing is the whores. Sorry. Forgot about Miller's Catwoman.   

Thanks. Really. I'll stick with the Batman works by Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams, Paul Dini, Bruce Timm, Alan Grant, Jim Starlin, Matt Wagner, Max Allen Collins, Bill Finger, Jim Aparo, Steve Englehart, Marshall Rogers, Dan Slott, Rick Burchett, Kelley Puckett & Walt Simonson.

I don't read Batman comics anymore. My reasoning behind this is that, much like Daredevil, Batman is a character whose world is fully-realised enough that I prefer to read a longer-lasting graphic novel and get lost in it; ergo, I read the trades.

This comic, however, actually gave me that feeling from a single issue.

How's that for a testament to the skill of Miller as a writer and Lee as an artist? Miller's down-to-earth realism is a nice counterweight to the out-of-this-world excitement of Morrison and his ilk. His Batman is a much more enjoyable character than the 'cool Zen master' we see in the monthlies, where it seems it's been forgotten that Batman is, above all else, human. The fact that much of this issue was written from young Dick Grayson's point of view only brought home how human he actually is; how human they both are. And I for one prefer reading that to camp humour or unrealistic stupidity.

a very good and thorough review from newsarama


All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder #2
From: DC
Writer: Frank Miller
Art: Jim Lee and Scott Williams
Review by The Rev. OJ Flow

An acquaintance of mine recently suggested that if you take any Batman book and use Adam West's voice for the lead hero's dialogue, it makes it a thousand times better. Hilarious an idea as it is, it did help me come to a realization as to why All Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder is failing to connect for me at this point. I will get to that realization a little later. This week at my local comic book store, I was treated to three different Batman characters. We got the emotionally wounded Batman in JLA #118: a hero who is bitter with his teammates for an earlier betrayal, yet a man who is focused, a consummate professional, and someone I'd trust with my life. We have the Gotham City defender in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #195: a relative novice in crimefighting, but a rational team player as he develops a team of civilian recruits to assist him in his never-ending war. Then we have the Batman written by a man who just about everyone credits with returning the character to cultural prominence twenty years ago, and I'm here to tell you that this Batman freaks me out right now. I couldn't have been more excited about the pairing of writer Frank Miller with Jim Lee on art chores for what I thought was going to be a classic rendering of Batman and Robin for DC's much-hyped "All Star" comics line, but I'll be hard-pressed to find a majority who favors this Batman as classic after reading the second issue of this series. What makes this all the more frustrating is that there's the occasional flash of brilliance in this story, just not enough to undo some frightening characterization of the lead player.

The action in All Star B&R picks up immediately from the debut issue. Batman has arrived to rescue (a term I use liberally) the newly orphaned Dick Grayson from corrupt Gotham City cops who have abducted him for what remain unknown motives. While Alfred tends to a wounded Vicki Vale after their attempts to intervene before Batman's arrival (a scene that has some odd sexual tension running throughout), the Dark Knight takes young Grayson with him for what amounts to a sort of joyride initiation. A lot has been made from fans after the first issue of the series as to the pederastic nature of Bruce Wayne's assessment of his future partner, and I have to say the first two pages of the second chapter do little to squelch that hypothesizing. The simultaneous esteem and contempt that Batman seems to hold for the young boy has a creepy feel that's hard to shake off. Then when Batman takes the opportunity to show Dick what the full capabilities of the Batmobile are at the expense of some more rogue cops on the outskirts of Gotham and he takes on a persona that resembles Steve Martin's hallucination of John Candy in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles when they were GOING THE WRONG WAY, I'm compelled to wonder just how much contempt Frank Miller has for these characters that have made him a pretty good living over the years. Hell, when did Miller develop such contempt for his readers?? "Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the Goddamn Batman?" Sorry, but I see that playing for laughs in a Kevin Smith film, not a straight-up Batman comic.

Not to say that this series is lacking moments in skillful production. That's what probably makes the creative shortcomings more disheartening than anything. Jim Lee's art (with Scott Williams and Alex Sinclair) is spectacular most of the time. From that standpoint, this is a big-budget production all the way. Lee and company manage to pull dynamic action from a script that epitomizes decompression. And what makes it interesting are the instances where Miller's scripts come through in the layouts, especially when you're able to compare it to what we got a couple years ago with Jeph Loeb's "Hush" in Batman. Take the 2-page spread at about the halfway point where Batman uses the Batmobile to take some police cars head on. It's pure Miller coming through where even a random panel of a lizard skipping across the rain-soaked highway (no purpose here, mind you) is something I know I've seen like in Sin City. In fact, at times I half thought I was reading that Dark Horse series, enough even that I half wondered if Miller recycled a script from that book. Other than the maniacal energy Miller infuses into Batman's personality, there really isn't a whole lot right with this that's making it a distinctive -- let alone definitive -- Batman book. I would say the book at the very least works as a response to Marvel's Ultimates in that resembling the originals doesn't guarantee likability.

There were a couple hints that there may be more to the story (is there one yet?) than we've gotten after two issues. The real last three pages of #2 are promising enough (I say "real" because the actual last page does not count since it's a full-page "to be continued" notice) with suggestions that this Dark Knight is not totally bat-shi# insane as he kind of straightens himself out and deals with Grayson as a real human being whose parents were just ruthlessly assassinated. This was probably the only time in the series where Bruce Wayne was written as soulfully as he was in Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns. More than anything I'd like to see an admirable or heroic Batman, and we haven't gotten that yet. One wonders if the "All Star" concept begins and ends with the creative team, characters be damned. As to my realization that I brought up at the beginning, this was what made me ultimately conclude that this imagining of Batman doesn't work: better than Adam West, imagine Kevin Conroy reciting Batman's lines in this book and tell me if you think it works. Nope, I didn't think so either.

That is EXACTLY what i was saying before...
i havent read #2 though...

"...there really isn't a whole lot right with this that's making it a distinctive -- let alone definitive -- Batman book."

Considering THAT is what DC billed this POS as, a definitive "iconic" take on Batman, it's a collossal failure just on that basis alone.

As for what "voice" to hear when reading it. Try O.J. Simpson. "What do you mean you're moving on after leaving me, you retard? I'm the g**d*** JUICE." Slash. Slice.

Works perfectly actually.

Luckily Alfred is a wizard with the laundry, so he can get the stains out of those bloody gloves.

Worst Batman book I've read for many  a long time. I'm sure the four pages of Vicky Vale T&A may please some fans but this was just dreadful.

Didn't make it through the first issue, let alone more than one.

AICN reviews #2:

ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN, THE BOY WONDER #2
Writer: Frank Miller
Artist: Jim Lee
Publisher: DC Comics
Reviewed by Dave Farabee


One of these things is not like the other…

    1989: “Who are you?!â€? “I’m Batman.â€?

    1992: “I am vengeance. I am the night. I am BATMAN.â€?

    2005: “Are you RETARDED or something? Who the hell do you THINK I am? I’m the goddamn BATMAN.â€?

If nothing else, that last unintentionally hilarious line from ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN #2 serves notice that writer Frank Miller is staking out new territory once again. Over the decades, audiences have seen Batman the smiling crimebuster, Batman the Dark Knight detective, and Batman the hardass control freak…but I’m pretty sure ALL-STAR serves up the first Batman as manic eighth grader.

Historians, take note.

So alright, Miller’s exercising some of the same muscles he did in the controversial DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN. He’s become taken in recent years with returning a sense of outrageousness to superhero material, to playing the iconoclast and serving up sacred cows as White Castle burgers. That’s not inherently wrong, is it? Didn’t we all love him for doing this in the original DARK KNIGHT? And isn’t there something to be said for countering prevailing trends of realism with more anarchic beats?

I want to say, “Looks good on paper, buuuuuut…�

ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN 2 picks up right on the heels of the first issue, Batman having rescued a young Dick Grayson from a pack of corrupt cops by…uhh…driving through their cop car. And now our two heroes are speeding away from Gotham in the Batmobile, narrative captions dotting the panels with Batman’s terse situational assessments and exposition. It’s all straight from the SIN CITY school of beating the reader over the head with a hardboiled cadence:

    Welcome to MY world, Dick Grayson. BATS and RATS and WARTS and all.

    You poor boy.

    You poor little bastard.

    Welcome to hell.

    Hell. Or the next best thing.

I can’t help but feel but Miller’s been around this same block so many times he’s worn a groove into the road, but he seems more self-aware this time. Perhaps damagingly so, as, for instance, he writes one scene where Grayson’s own narrative captions recognize Batman’s tough guy persona as a facade:

    That’s not his real voice. It’s like he’s doing some lameass Clint Eastwood impersonation.

I had to laugh. What a way to undercut your lead character’s mystique! But the intent of the scene was clearly to establish the soon-to-be-Robin as a canny kid, capable of seeing through Batman’s R. Lee Ermey drill instructing and recognizing there’s a human underneath. Does the attempt at bringing some three-dimensionality to the characters work?

I say no, and not just because it’s almost breaking the fourth wall to comment on Batman sounding like Clint Eastwood (as he does in so many movies and cartoons). No, I just don’t think Miller can do subtle anymore, not even “comic book� subtle. Attempting it in mid-Mickey Spillane riff is as awkward a fit as Jim Lee’s art on the book, with its detailed, pretty linework meshing miserably with Miller’s consciously coarse approach to writing. With DK2, love it or hate it, at least Miller’s anarchic drawing style (what they call “bigfoot cartooning�) was a match for his words. And Jim Lee just can’t pull that off. He’s too slick, too traditional. He likes detail and cross-hatching and paying lip service to realism. It’s like consummate craftsman Frank Sinatra trying to belt out a punk tune.

And maybe not such a good punk tune at that.

The meat of the issue is a chase scene – legions of cop cars in pursuit of the Batmobile. Among the more outrageous moments: the Batmobile sprouting wings and flying like one of those cheesy old M.A.S.K. toys from the ‘80s; the Batmobile’s computer “speaking� with Alfred’s British accent; the iconically stately Alfred recast as a studly Rhett Butler type, tearing off his shirt to bind Vicky Vale’s injures and holding her sensually in the rain like the cover to a bodice-ripper romance; and let’s not forget Batman’s newfound penchant for maniacal laughter! Just before the Batmobile sprouts wings and flies, Batman begins yucking it up like he’s channeling Blue Beetle’s “Bwa-ha-has� from beyond:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You’re gonna love this kid! Just watch, kiddo. This is gonna be great! HAH!

Did I mention that Batman incinerates a bunch of cops when the Batmobile’s engines make like a rocket? Yeah. At that point in the story, though, I really didn’t care. I’d already grown numb to the book’s “WE’RE NEW AND DIFFERENT, GODDAMN IT!� approach to rejuvenating Batman, so what did I care if Miller’d decided Gotham cops were now so vile that Batman would kill ‘em with a laugh and a smile? With execution so desperate, you stop worrying about what “fits� the character and whether it’s bold or not to take a page from the Golden Age when Batman used to kill. You just laugh or sneer or pine for BATMAN: YEAR ONE. Or maybe you try to figure out what DC was thinking in promoting the All-Star line early on as home to recognizable, iconic takes on DC’s greatest heroes; as following in the tradition of Alan Moore’s smart, neo-Silver Age Superman story, “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?�

What were they, retarded or something?

GaoGaiGar, you're beginning to sound like Newsarama's own pet troll, New Alfonso. Is it so difficult to accept that some of us DID enjoy this book and want to talk about it? Why do you need to spam the thread with your negativity?

well said my good man.  GaoGaiGar, we understand you don't like the book, so quit posting your negativity here.  If it continues, I will increase your warning level.  You've already made your point abundantly clear, but that doesn't change the fact that some people actually like the book.  That doesn't mean you have to like it, and it doesn't mean you have to keep posting reasons not to like the book.  Give it up already.

So what's the verdict, then? Bold new interpretation, or desperate grab for relevance?

I would answer but if anyone says anything less than flattering - Big Grim is going to WARN them...
Not worth it

I think it's a lil of both.  The flaws are there, but I like it in spite of the flaws.  I love Batman, I love Frank Miller, I love Jim Lee.  It's only been 2 issues, I always stick with an arc to the end, even if I don't like it at first cuz that's just how I am.  Once I have all the pieces put together and can see the big picture, I make my judgement.  If it's still crap when everything is said and done, I'm dropping it.  But for now, I like it and I'm keeping it.

I like it, 'Bats and rats and warts and all'.

That said, I'm a little nervous about how short it's meant to be. I don't think, with the pacing as it is at the mo, that Miller can write a definitive origin for Robin in the space of the 4 issues he's confirmed as doing so far. However, it's been hinted at that Miller and Lee may stick around a bit longer than that. If the pace picks up in the next few issues (as in, they at least get home in the first third of issue 3!), a six-issue arc seems appropriate. I'd like Frank Miller to stick around, though, possibly taking on art chores as well if Lee leaves.

I don't think Big Grim's trying to be some comic book Nazi here, HunterRose. If you don't like the book feel free to say so. It's constant bashing, or trolling, that's unwelcome, this isn't Newsarama (and it's barely tolerated there). The comics board at TFans has always been a fairly relaxed place to come and chat about comics and I for one hope our all-knowing, all-seeing (or so he'd like us to think ) mod can keep it that way.

my problem was that he attacked GaioGear after Gaio had posted a legitimate review - it wasnt some random bashing (though i realize that the two of them had some friction earlier in the thread)

But i for one appreciated BOTH articles posted.  Both were less than Favorable and Big Grim even posted one of them....

I dont think its right for Gaio to personally insult individuals just cause they dont agree with him - but for Grim to flex those mod muscles just cause someone else posted a legitimate review - seemed borederline "power abuse"

while you sniped - i am actually tempted to go and buy #2 - just so i can debate the issue a bit.... but not if i am going to get banned becasue i dont agree with everyone on which is the best comic book in the world....

I in fact think its Funny that batman is being portrayed as a malicious predator (you retard).

But again if this were a Sin City book it would be a hundered times better and more appropriate - but then it would still pale in comparison to the best Sin City stories.

i'm just sayin is all....
Anyway i am kind of annoyed that people like Miller go around preaching about the big bad TWO (DC/Marvel)

And then rush to work for them & (and this is the kicker) now that he has done DK2 and BatsAllstars Miller seems to continue to hold the contempt he expresses towards the companies and takes it out on his audience...
that just feels cheap, and dishonest to me...
And you can smell his contempt dribbling off the page....

Sigh....

Hunter

guys, it's comic books.  Relax. Quit whining already. Buncha drama queens.  Nobody's getting banned cuz they don't like a book.  Cripes, calm down already

Dude, what the hell is wrong with you this week? You've been going off on everyone that disagrees with you. I'm not sure what's going on in RL for ya, but "trustme", people here aren't out to get you. Just calm down and remember that it's teh internet. Relaaaaaaaaaaaax.

TAZBOT

in an effort to get back on topic, here's my response to Madhammer's question from the previous page.

Here's where I think the book is going:

Batman has been engaged in his "war" so long that it's starting to make him even crazier, which is why the Batman at the start of this story doesn't seem like "Batman."  Robin's influence is going to right this dangerous course and "re-humanize" him.  Presto - the "Batman" everyone knows/loves is back.
PS:  I like Lee's art.

Trench-
That theory kinda makes some sense... i still am on the fence about whether or not i am going to follow it...
but this thread is making me want to go pick up #2 (its not like they are expensive or anything...)