How should we officially count our TFs?

[Goktimus Prime]

With all the controversy and furore surrounding the 2005 Survey Protocol, I think it's time we established a new protocol. In the interests of democracy, we'll all vote on which system we think is best and use that for the 2006 Survey Protocol and hopefully try to establish a universal collection counting format.

 

Please read each proposed model carefully before casting your vote!

 

MODEL 1

The 2005 Survey Protocol. This was used when I conducted a survey last year to determine the average Transfans' collection size across numerous boards. This was based on cliffbee's counting system and was largely accepted by most fans - however the most controversial element was the issue of variants and the "Substitution Rationale."

* Gestalt robots do NOT count separately. e.g.: Devastator = 6 Constructicons, not 7. Defensor = 5 Protectobots, not 6.

* Nebulans and other ~Master partners do NOT count separately. Although they possess separate names and personas, they are fundamentally just accessories.

* Pretender shells do NOT count separately. Again, they are just separate accessories for the main Transformer. Also, even from the mythos POV, unlike Nebulans, Pretender shells never had separate names or personas - in the Western continuity, it was just a suit of armour that could be remotely controlled by the Transformer. If you count Pretender shells, then Depth Charge and Ultra Jetstorm's Probe Weapons should count separately too. :P

* Micromasters - each separate robot counts. Bases, trailers etc. don't count (again, they are accessories to the robot, albeit in some cases, very elaborate accessories, but still just accessories nonetheless) - if we're going to count Micromaster bases separately, then the Beast Wars bases would count separately too... and there's no way I'd count Volcano Base as a Transformer. d:

* Action Masters - count separately. They are the single exception to the rule that non-transforming TF toys don't count. Action Master partners do NOT count - again, they're just accessories.

* Beastformers count, but Battle Beasts do NOT. (sorry - Takara defined Beastformers as part of the TF line, but Hasbro never classified Battle Beasts as TFs, so they cannot count)

* Decoys, PVCs, model kits, statues etc. do NOT count. Except for Action Masters and Beastformers if it doesn't transform then it's NOT a Transformer. :P Yes, I know some model kits and gum/candy toys transform, but they still don't count because they are not marketed as part of the main TF action figure line.

* Legends of Cybertron don't count -- according to cliffbee's rules, they do - but last year I couldn't see LoC as TFs.. they just looked the same as the gum/candy toys from Kabaya... cliffbee's counterargument was that unlike Kabaya, Hasbro has marketed LoC as actual TF action figures. For this reason, LoC are counted in Model 2 (I now count LoC as TFs)

* Titanium Figures: although they weren't out last year, under these rules, the non-transforming ones would not count. They count as miniature statues.

* Mini-Cons all count separately just like Micromasters.

* Knock-Offs do NOT count - ever. Neither do pre-Transformers.

* World's Smallest Transformers do count.

* Happy Meal figures do NOT count.

* Animorphs do count. So would Star Wars Transformers.

* PlaySkool Transformers count.

* VARIANTS ---> now here's the clincher. Whether they count or not depends on the Substitution Rationale. By this definition, if a variant can be generally accepted as a subsitute, then it does NOT count. Examples of variants that do NOT count: red and yellow Bumblebee/Cliffjumper, pre and post rub sign 1984 TFs (who cares if your TF has a rub-sign or not??), most reissues. Variants which DO count are: black reissue repaints, CD-ROM Convobat/Megalligator, e-Hobby variants, e.g.: Pepsi Convoy.

PROS: This system focuses on a meaningful way of counting Transformer toys and uses rules of exclusion to dispense of CHEAP ways to boost collection numbers such as those who would want to count what are fundamentally just accessories (Nebulans, Pretender shells et al). It also stops people from outright cheating by counting KOs and pre-TFs. If you happen to collect these things, good for you - but you must surely know that they are not Transformers.

CONS: The Substitution Rationale has proven to be highly contentous amongst collectors. It's also arguably too moot - as what classifies as "acceptable substitute" can vary greatly depending on an individual collector's own interpretation of what this means. Model 2 attempts to address this issue by removing the Substitution Rationale.

 

MODEL 2

This is the same as the 2005 Protocol but with the following changes based on what I have observed in most debates about last year's Protocol. This is the model that I currently use personally.

* Legends of Cybertron DO count. Although they are small and crappy - just like the Kabaya gum/candy kit toys, as cliffbee says, they are marketed very differently - i.e.: they are marketed to be part of the main TF action figure line. And they do transform, so they now count.

* Variants COUNT. Trying to define which variants should and shouldn't count just got too messy. So they all count now. I would propose that the sole exception to this rule is pre vs post rub sign. Do we really care whether my Bumblebee has a rub sticker or not?? But on the whole, all variants now count.

* Titanium Series - only the ones that transform count.

PROS & CONS: Same as that for Model 1, only that the controversial Substitution Rationale has been removed. By removing what most people saw as Model 1's greatest weakness, I believe that Model 2 is the most ideal system of TF classification and counting.

 

MODEL 3

This is the "Everything Counts" model. Which means:

* Combiner gestalt robots count separately, e.g.: Devastator becomes 7 instead of 6.

* Every Nebulan (and other ~master partner) counts separately.

* Pretender shells count separately.

* Action Master Partners count separately.

* Decoys, model-kits, PVCs etc etc - all count separately.

* KOs count. As do pre-TFs.

-- in other words, every separate piece of toy counts separately. There are virtually NO rules of exclusion here.

PROS: It's the idiot's system, extremely simple to use. With nil rules of exclusion, you just can't go wrong - there would be no debates over what should be included (although there would be many debates about what should NOT be included). You just count bloody everything!

CONS: It is arguably too simplistic. Many fans could argue that rules of exclusion are important to stop fans from "cheating" or just being downright cheap when it comes to lame attempts to boost their collection numbers (e.g.: counting statues, Happy Meal toys, Nebulans, Pretender shells, gestalt robots, bases etc <--extreme cheapness!). Many fans will argue that KOs and pre-TFs should not count, as they are, strictly speaking, not Transformers.

 

MODEL 4

ErikB's proposed model is similar to Model 3 but with the following exclusions:

* Micromaster combined forms do NOT count separately (although combined gestalts DO count)

* Beastformers count, but Battle Beasts do not.

* TF merchandise (pens, sheets, clothing etc) do not count.

PROS & CONS: As this proposition is so similar to Model 3, its Pros and Cons are also very similar. It is a simplistic and cheap form of counting.

 

Please select one of those four proposed models. I don't want this thread becoming one where everyone argues about their own definition of an ideal system, because let's face it, we all have our own definition. Due to the inherent arbitrary nature of classification we would be debating forever over which is the "right" or "wrong" way to classify and count Transformers. In the end, there isn't one. But on the other hand, it is important to establish a uniform system of classification and counting to make collection number comparisons meaningful. It's useless for fans to compare collection numbers if we aren't speaking the same language.

 

So here you have a choice.

 

I would personally advocate Model 2, as this is a model that I created based on the discussions/debates that I've had across several boards about the pros and cons of Model 1 and what most fans would like to see in a classification system. I'd like to use Model 2 for the 2006 TF Collection number survey, so Vote 1 for Model 2! :D  :thumb

[Grand Galactic Inquisitor]

Went a little blind trying to read all that.  Seriously I count each set separately.  My Alt/BTs are one set, GI reissues and vintage anre another, and my mainline TFs, ALL of them from Armada thru Cybertron and eventually into Classics, are set up in teams.  However that fits your models, that's what I do.  I honestly have no idea exactly how many TFs I have.

[Goktimus Prime]

Please take the time to read through each proposed model separately and cast a vote - it's important that we all agree to use a consistent system of counting for the basis of comparison. You don't need to stick to any of these systems personally - personally you can use whatever the hell you want, but for the purposes of the 2006 Survey, I need everyone to be speaking the same language. The purpose of this thread is for us to agree on which "language" we want to be speaking for the 2006 Survey.

 

I'm still highly recommending Model 2.

[Grand Galactic Inquisitor]

There's a survey?  I have to do homework now?  No thanx.  That sounds too much like work, and I'm not into TFs because I enjoy counting them.  Besides like I said, most of my stuff right now is in storage and I really have no idea exactly how many I have. 

[siburke939]

I don't like any of them methods 100% and I'll count mine as I see fit.

 

Null vote.

[Sentinel]

Model 2 sounds spot on to me. That is what I have been using and that is what I have been arguing we should use.

 

Either way though, someone will disagree and want to do it their way, you do realize that right? At least this way people will argue less though I think.

 

EDIT:

I don't like any of them methods 100% and I'll count mine as I see fit.

 

Null vote.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, see, I knew that was going to happen. But, people can and will count however they want to.

[TMan978]

Oh god I'm lazy.

[siburke939]

Model 2 sounds spot on to me. That is what I have been using and that is what I have been arguing we should use.

 

Either way though, someone will disagree and want to do it their way, you do realize that right? At least this way people will argue less though I think.

 

EDIT:

I don't like any of them methods 100% and I'll count mine as I see fit.

 

Null vote.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, see, I knew that was going to happen. But, people can and will count however they want to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If people state the rules clearly in for their surveys then I'll abide by them. (Or more likely I'll just not bother participating!) But for myself, I count as I want to.

 

McDonalds (official & they Transform) >>> Beastformers (don't Transform) IMO

[Maximo Prime]

If people state the rules clearly in for their surveys then I'll abide by them. (Or more likely I'll just not bother participating!) But for myself, I count as I want to.

 

McDonalds (official & they Transform) >>> Beastformers (don't Transform) IMO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

what beastformers don't transform?

 

I can't pick a model.  Anything that has a name, counts.. anythign that doesn't... doesn't.  Pretender shells and bases don't count.  *master partners (head, power, target, action) count.  That's my take on it...  any one who's into actionmasters will be all over their little buddies.

 

All H/T/P-masters are seriously missing something without their partners.  That makes them countable to me... plus they have names, bios, personalities...etc..

[siburke939]

what beastformers don't transform?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

None of them Transform.

 

Beastformers =/= Beast Wars

 

Beastformers = Battle Beasts

 

:thumb

 

 

 

*edit*

Highlighted'D!  :tfgrin